The Chase Theory
Can guys and girls be friends?
Short answer:
No.
Long answer:
I believe that men and women can’t be friends, regardless of attraction. I learned the two laws of men and women way back in preschool:
- Guys chase women.
- Women like to be chased.
Thus is the paradox of an attempted friendship. The guy’s instinct is to chase and the girl likes to be chased, so if the guy isn’t chasing, the girl isn’t going to be friends with him. If the guy is chasing but the girl refuses to indulge him, the guy isn’t going to be friends with her. And if somehow both parties fight their impulses and don’t chase and don’t want to be chase, then the friendship will die because there’s no spark to it.
Guys and girls quite simply can’t be friends.
You can find it, of course. You can fight your instincts. A temporary friendship can form while either or both parties fight those instincts. Here are some things that help prolong a temporary guy/girl friendship:
- Distance. I would say I’m something akin to a “friend” with an ex-girlfriend who is married and lives many states away. But we’re not really friends. We don’t hang out. We don’t have beers or play on the same kickball team or shower together. (What?)
- Indifference. Sometimes one person is so completely indifferent to the other that a temporary friendship can form. The problem is, even that dissolves when that person realizes that they get along with this other person who they normally would not have considered as a friend, and meanwhile the other person is trying to convince the first person not to be so indifferent to them.
- Taken. If one or both people are dating or married to other people, a temporary friendship can form. Especially if you know and respect the person’s significant other. Oddly enough, I think this scenario is helped if both people are equally attractive. I’ve tried to be friends with less attractive women who have boyfriends, and it doesn’t work. They have, on occasion, gotten the wrong idea and wanted to “upgrade.” I know that sounds arrogant. But it’s definitely my perception. I actually think that equal (or close to it) levels of attraction help in any relationship, whether it’s friendship or a romance.
Given all that, I still think it’s temporary. After a certain point, the guy is going to lose interest if he can’t chase, and the girl will lose interest if she isn’t being chased. The sad thing is, I think men and women can benefit from opposite-sex friendships. I guess it makes all those temporary friendships all the more worthwhile.
I’ll also say this: Be open and honest about your intentions with your temporary opposite gender friends. If you want to flirt and pursue them, do it, and be up front about what you’re doing. Don’t toy with women–they deserve better than that. And ladies, don’t toy with us men. If you truly want to be friends, so be it. But if you want to be the type of friends that end up in the shower someday after kickball practice, just say that. Or if you’re pretending to be friends for a while so you can convince the guy that he should date you, just tell him. Maybe you won’t be friends afterward, but at least you’ll safe both parties a lot of time and heartache.
Last, there is one good thing that can come of a guy and a girl who attempt to be friends: They can fall in love, stop being friends, and become a couple. Guy chases girl, girl likes being chased, they catch each other’s hearts and make a go of it. Everybody’s satisfied and happy.
What do you think: Can guys and girls be friends? I’ll be honest–I’m probably not going to believe you. So prove me wrong.
Fellow blogger Penelope and I both approached this question from our respective male vs. female perspectives. Head over to Penelope’s blog to read the female point of view!
I have several male friends that I have been friends with since high school and college and we have never had anything physical happen between us. We’ve maintained our friendship throughout the years, BUT I would say that I think it has worked out that way because we were never physically attracted to each other- thus, could remain strictly platonic.
Dionne–Interesting. Maybe if both parties are mutually unattracted to one another, it can work.
Great post! I think you are absolutely right about the laws that men love to chase and women love to be chased! I agree that the friendship tends to die if that spark isn’t present.
I also think there is a lot to be gained from male-female friendships, so I like how you mention the possibility there.
But my question about the temporary friendships is this: What would a friendship that falls into the taken category have to be temporary? (Particularly if one of the parties is married.)
Penelope–Why would a friendship that falls into the taken category have to be temporary?
Because I don’t think those boundaries are respected, sometimes by both parties. You have to truly not flirt at all or want anything at all. The only reason you’d be friends with someone in that scenario would be if you had a neat connection with them, and if you have a neat connection with them, you may wonder what that means, which either leads to flirting or an honorable dismissal of the whole thing because it’s too risky.
At least, that’s my opinion
Hi Jamey,
Popped over here after reading the story you submitted to Predictably Irrational.
Reading your post reminded me of that Oscar Wilde quotation:
“Between men and women there is no friendship possible. There is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship.”
Cheers,
Dougal
Hey Dougal, thanks for checking out the blog! I appreciate Oscar Wilde for personally supporting my theory.
You’re aware that Oscar Wilde was gay, yes?
I didn’t know that
I’m going to agree with Dionne. If there is no mutual attraction, friendships have the ability to stay intact. Then again, what happens when one starts actually dating someone else and the other feels…..jealousy?
I absolutely love the question Junket has put out there. If you thought it was platonic before, but then you realize you’re jealous when your “friend” starts dating, how do you handle that? Is it better to put your feelings on the the table then, wait it out and keep up the guise of friendship or walk away?
Dionne and Junket–I wonder if those “no mutual attraction” friendships were ever actually ones in which you were the uninterested party and the other party held out some type of hope that you’d one day be post-kickball shower buddies (as Jamey put it)…or if the other party at least had that thought in the back of his head with some mild form of hope.
Jaam, I’m trying to think of some way around this, but I honestly think all of my enduring female friendships are ones in which I respect a woman’s significant other.
Also, does anyone who is or has been married think your perspective/opinion on this changes when you’re married? Do you look at men/women differently when you’re happily hitched?
I was gonna get all, “nuh-UH” on you and be like, ” I TOTALLY have guy friends”, but in hindsight…every single one of them em-effers has tried to make out with me. Some have succeeded. Hey, I’m a giver, I can’t let all of my people down.
That said, I think almost everyone knows, deep down, that the guy-girl friendship portion of the program is a temporary thing. There is always some underlying curiousity, and like Penelope said, if you get along so great as friends, what if???? It makes me sad inside.
Yeah, I’m going to disagree with you. Not completely, because you make very valid points and point out very real situations, and I think for a lot of people and a lot of friendships, you’re right.
I’d list all my reasons but I just finished writing them on Penelope’s post, and repeat postings are annoying, so…um, go there instead.
Jamie – your posts get me thinking, haha! As I was reading, I was nodding my head in total agreement with your ideas. Then it occurred to me — I do, in fact, have a very good opposite-sex friend who is just a friend. Huh. Why is that? A few things keep the friendship going (and yes, it is a solid, real friendship):
1. I am also friends with his wife. I think she is awesome and would never dream of doing anything to jeopardize her great marriage.
2. There is little physical attraction. Why? This guy is truly like family to me. While I can see plainly with my eyes that my siblings are handsome/pretty, I have never (thankfully) felt romantic feelings towards them. Same goes for this friend.
3. The friendship-of-sibling-nature has gone on for a long time. In other words, there’s no turning back. Any window of possibility for romance has long passed, and I will never see him “like that.”
4. We have boundaries. I don’t hang out late at night drinking wine with him, alone. It’s not even that we work hard to keep those boundaries… it just isn’t the way we interact, and it’s going to stay that way.
5. My friend almost become a priest. Long before we ever became friends, he resolved in his own mind that he was capable of interacting with all women as sisters instead of romantic interests. While he ended up stumbling upon and marrying his true love instead of embracing the priesthood, he is very comfortable interacting with other women in a platonic way. So, no chase.
Junket–Jealousy indeed. I guess, in all fairness, same-sex friendships experience jealousy as well. Perhaps you’ve had a female friend start to date a guy and stopped hanging out with you. There might be some envy there.
But there’s certainly a different type of jealousy that can arise in an opposite-gender friendship that can be quite confusing. It’s like a litmus paper for determining if you truly wanted a friendship or if you were secretly hoping for something more.
Penelope–I think the minute you realize (or admit) that jealousy or other feelings are present, that’s the beginning of the end. Either the friendship will significantly change or fade, or you’re become something more than friends.
Trev–I ascribe to the theory you allude to above, that even friendships where neither person is attracted to the other have roots in some sort of attraction. Because, physical attraction aside, why would you want to be friends with someone you’re not attracted to? Whether it’s their personality or their humor or something else, connections are formed in attraction. With same-sex friendships, it’s platonic attraction. But it’s different when you’re of opposite genders. That attraction takes new meaning whether you like it or not.
Biscuit–thanks for your honesty
. I did the same thing last night…I tried to find a female friend that I’ve ever known in person, and really, it hasn’t happened. There have been temporary friendships, but nothing beyond that. I truly do value those temporary friendships, though.
Sarah and Bradshaw–you bring up some great points. Having a friend who used to want to become a priest is a pretty good exception (although a part of me wants to say that if he decided he didn’t want to be a priest, part of the reason was probably because he loves women, and you’re a woman, so…).
I’m not going to claim I know what’s really going on with your friendships. But I know me, I know men, and I’ll ask you this: Can you honestly say that there’s not a single part of these men that wants to kiss you? Can you honestly say that there’s not a single part of you that wants them to want to kiss you?
Also, Sarah, I totally hear you about siblings. I think it is possible to be friends with an opposite-sex siblings. But actually being siblings and being “like” siblings are totally different things, even if our mindset is the same.
Haha, Jamie, I cannot speak for my friend but I honestly think he doesn’t want to kiss me (ack!!
). We once had a conversation about how he tends to see women as sisters pretty much all the time. He said he could live with an entire community of nuns and never think twice about it. In his case, it seems he is in love with his wife and only her. The only reason he didn’t go through with the priesthood is because she showed up. In other words, in spite of having plenty of female friends, no other girl inspired him to leave his thoughts of the priesthood except her.
I do agree that being “like” siblings and siblings is different but it’s also the premise of most religious communities (I should clarify here that my friend not only wanted to be a priest, but a monk… so he would have been living with “brothers” for the rest of his life. So he was also already “trained” in this kind of thinking). I once read a fascinating article on how American culture has lost the art of platonic love… we seem inept at forming these sibling-like relationships among friends whereas other cultures and other time periods it seemed more common. I think I “get” more of what that author was saying after having formed this friendship. It’s possible my buddy is just uniquely gifted/practiced at that way of relating!
I do agree though that there are many many (if not most) opposite sex friendships that are just unrealistic.
Sorry, I keep spelling your name wrong! Jamey… not Jamie. Duh!
T-Mac, to answer your question about if the other person held out some kind of interest for the uninterested friend- Not that I know of. The male friends I was referring to (Jason, Dale, and Nick) are all married (except Nick). Jason, my bestfriend in highschool, and I have talked several times before how we had so many opportunities to fool around together and never did because how we view each other more as brother and sister. Same with Dale and Nick- they are more like siblings to me than love interests. Thinking about ever being romantic with them feels incestuous (?) and I’m sure they feel the same way.
It is impossible to say without the shadow of a doubt what they think. I think it would be a little audacious of me to think that I know the deepest workings of their minds. However, yes, I can say for myself there is not a part that wants them to kiss me. I see them similar to how I see my platonic girl friends, and I don’t want my girl friends to kiss me (not that they wouldn’t be great, but that’s a whole different story). I realize that men and women are very different, but that just means they bring many different facets to the friendship. That’s why I AM friends with men. Because of what they can bring to a friendship. Brutal honesty, if necessary, and a different perspective than what any of my girl friends would be able to present. I get your point on women wanting to be chased, and for many women, yes, it’s an ego boost. But that is not my reason for befriending the people I do, it’s not why I maintain those friendships. I keep my friends, male and female, because their personalities complement mine and they have qualities that I like people in my life to possess. To me, it would be a shame if I lost any male friends because the “chase” wasn’t fun anymore. But then I’ll just brush myself off and say “their loss” and move on.
Someone on Twitter just wisely pointed out that my post (and Penelope’s) seem to deal only with heterosexuals. That was not my intent, and I can’t speak for Penelope, but it wasn’t her intent. It’s just that the inclusive language adds a lot of extra words. Instead of “Can guys and girls be friends?”, it’s “Can two people of the same sexual preference be friends?”
I am certainly curious about what the lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender opinion is about all this, and it was not my intent at all to exclude them. I was merely sharing my perspective, and my perspective is that of a heterosexual male.
Bradshaw–Truly, if you’re able to wear a genderless filter for all of your friendships (and them when they look at you), I applaud you. Perhaps the impossible is possible. I totally agree that opposite-gender friendships are invaluable, and that’s why I don’t want to take for granted any of my “temporary” female friends.
I can’t say that I disagree with your theory, but I also think that men and women can be friends. (I was going to mention the hetero focus, but you already addressed that). You have my agreement that 1. men love to chase & 2. women love to be chased & that there should be some kind of attraction in all quality relationships (friends, romantic, etc).
I was going to get into a long-winded argument about how heterosexual men and heterosexual women can be friends. Then I realized that for you, from what I can discern about your personality and viewpoint from reading your blog, a “permanent” man-woman friendship will probably never work.
On the other hand, I’m the kind of girl who will call her man friends up for advice on almost anything, is a single straight woman living with a single straight male and nothing has ever happened. My personality leads me to enjoy the no-bs, straightforwardness of having male friends, even though I also have many close girl friends. Yet, your theory has made me look at the men in my life who I will never be “permanent” friends with…like the ones who I always end up in the shower with after the game.
Also sorry that the comment did end up being incredibly long-winded!
Jill–Thanks for your perspective, especially since you’re in the unique situation of living with a single guy who you’re just friends with. For me, I could probably live with a girl if I was in a committed relationship with someone else, but not if I were single. I’m a chaser–I know that. I’d always be hoping she’d step into the shower with me.
As for calling opposite-sex friends for advice…definitely. But there’s a certain distance to that. I think the distance helps.
Who knows, maybe my viewpoint on all this will change when I’m committed and in love. But even then, I think the issue stands that you’re friends with people you’re attracted to in some way, which adds a peculiar dynamic with a female that’s not present with a male for me.
What are the elements that make the living situation with your roommate work?
“I’m probably not going to believe you. So prove me wrong.”
Maybe you’ve just never met the right really cool woman in the right setting (i.e. not necessarily only the bars!) who is capable of being just friends. I get the feeling from your post that you’re an attractive person and know it…and hence think every girl who befriends you wants to hit your shit. Not necessarily true.
Though maybe if you have met that really cool woman described above, that made you want to do the chase and hence the possible friendship was ruined by you anyway. What a conundrum. LOL
Josey–I should phrase it this way (this is less arrogant and more true than what I wrote in the post): I know when someone is attracted to me. I definitely don’t think every female who has ever befriended me has wanted to hop on the J-train. I can think of several examples right away. I don’t meet many (or really, any) women at bars.
I’ve just never had the experience of having a long-term female friend. And a huge part of it is me, not the woman. I like to chase. I like to flirt. I like to seduce. I don’t like to play games, so I’m up front about these things, and I expect the same from someone else.
I take it you have male friends who truly are just friends?
LOL – the J-train. That rocks.
I guess that was part of why I wrote that you have maybe derailed your own chances of having girlFRIENDS – b/c you like the chase…but as long as you’re honest about it, then hell, why not?
I do have guy friends who are truly just friends. I consider myself blessed!
Josey–that’s awesome that you’ve been able to sustain relationships with guys (both single and taken?) It’s definitely a great dynamic. You’ll have to update us in a couple years to see if they were truly long term friendships
Sure, I readily admit that there have been many times when I’ve derailed my own chances. I simply enjoy the chase too much. I take responsibility for that, and I’m honest about it. Maybe someday someone will chase the chase right out of me.
My guy friends often say when they hang out with me it’s like hanging out with one of the guys. I have an easy going, straight forward personality that is more typically associated with males.
What do you mean by distance…you mean created by the phone? Most of the guys I call live in St. Louis & I also see/seek advice from them in person on a regular basis.
The roommate situation: It just works…mostly for many of the ways that any roommate situation works…we communicate, I like to make things pretty & he buys the furniture, we’re both easy going, at times I treat him like my younger brother. We manage to lounge around in various levels of undress (never nekkid) and at varying levels of soberness without participating in any carnal adventures. I think the key point being that even though I can say he’s a physically attractive person, I’m not attracted to him in that way and vice versa…and we were both clear when we moved in together that nothing would ever happen. I guess you could say that we’re companions?
Why does a small part of someone wanting to kiss someone else void the whole friendship, though? If it’s truly a small part of that person’s feeling towards their friend and they have no intention of acting on it, then the two are still just friends. People experience minor impulses that they would never choose to act on all the time.
Renee–Regardless of intentions, I don’t think that friends want to kiss friends. I don’t think it voids a friendship. I just think it puts a clock on it, because you’re either going to get that kiss or you’re not. If you get the kiss, is that really still a friendship? And if you don’t, maybe you lose interest.
Really, though, I’m just one guy. This is just my opinion. If you’re coming to me and saying that you want to kiss your male friends, but you still consider them friends and you’re frank and honest with them, and them you, and you can hang out one on one with them in a friendly way, all the more power to you. Really. I wish I were the type of person who could handle that. Like, if you’re friends with benefits with someone, are you really friends?
Jill–Okay, this isn’t like me, but let me have a “he’s just not that into you” moment of bluntness here: When yourr male roommate sees you in various levels of undress, he likes it. He probably would be happy to see you naked. Friends don’t want to see friends naked.
I’m glad you found something that works, and obviously this guy is able to control his impulses (if he doesn’t, he loses a roommate, per your agreement). But that, to me, is temporary. One can only control one’s impulses for so long.
Okay, off the soapbox. That’s just my take. Perhaps he’s truly not attracted to you, I don’t know. But feel free to come back and post here when you have an awkward non-friend encounter with your roommate in the future.
One, your recent posts make me think of “When Harry Met Sally”. A great classic movie which fills with differences between men and women and faked orgasms. “I’ll have what she’s having.” RIP Estelle Reiner.
Two, I agree that opposite-sex friendships are next to impossible. I tried being friends with guys and it just doesn’t work. I made some great guy “friends” during freshmen year of college, but they slowly faded out. I tried calling, facebooking, mail pigeons, and other forms of communications. Nothing. They are worst to try keep in contact than my girl friends. So I guess that is because a) I’m no longer attractive or interesting to them, b) they have girlfriends and I’m no longer considered to be a friend, and/or c) I’m a girl and girls have cooties. I think I’ll just have to accept that I will never have a true guy friend to hang out with.
How sad is that. The opposite sex is so much fun.
Three, you know that you and your kickball team are tight when you all shower together after practice. That is some bond you and your team have.
Jasmin–Actually, I was thinking today about male/female friendships in college, and somehow they seemed more possible back then. Sure, there’s always some type of draw or attraction, but there’s so much hanging out that goes on that it seems easier just to hang out and be friends.
Is there a line for this “J-train”? And how does one get tickets? Lol!
Ummmmm…
It’s great to get a man’s perspective on this topic! I just commented on Penelope’s blog that as much as I hate to admit it, you and Billy Crystal (Harry) are right. It can’t be done and I am proof.
My best guy friend and I have been friends for 10 years. We’ve always been close. We were roommates in college, we dated each other’s best friends and he was even a brides’man’ in my wedding – standing on my side with my two maids-of-honor!
Throughout the years, we lived in different cities, we took our turns being indifferent and every now and then one of us would be in a serious relationship. We did our little ‘dance,’ as we now call it, but never, EVER did we speak about the ‘elephant in the room.’
That was, until I got divorced. After my divorce, we spent more time together. We were both available and we both finally admitted to ourselves, and each other, that we were interested. Funny that it took one of us being married to figure out how we truly felt about each other all those years.
So, as you can see, unfortunately I am proof to your theory. Sorry ladies
Thanks for this perfect example of how “temporary” can mean 10+ years! Did you end up with the guy? Why do you think it took so long to admit you were interested?
That’s too funny, Penelope just asked the same question… For us, it was all about timing.
We discussed a “hypothetical situation of being more than friends someday”, once, right before I met my ex-husband actually. At that time, our friendship was just too important to put at risk. What if it didn’t work out and then we hated each other? Back then, the risk didn’t equal the potential reward.
It all boiled down to the fact that we both needed some time for personal growth. My growth came with becoming a mother and going through a tough relationship/divorce. I learned a lot about myself during the process. For my boyfriend…well, he just needed time to realize that maybe he needed a bit more than his ‘eternal bachelor-lifestyle’ would provide. To be honest, he’s still working on that one
So, I guess you can say I did “end up” with the guy…but there’s no ring on my finger or serious talk of that in the future. That’ll probably take us another 10 years to get to that point!
Penelope asks good questions
See, I’ve never understood the “friendship is too important to put at risk” thing. I’d rather find the love of my life than just force things to stay at a certain level. No?
But I’m glad things worked out. It sounds like you grew in ways that you couldn’t have without those other experiences, and now you ended up with the original guy. Best of luck as things progress!
Better late than never. Some of my best friends over the years have been women, and still are. This is especially true of those I meet at work. Maybe the workplace taboo against romantic involvement helps, maybe I’m not attractive and that doesn’t matter to women who see me as a good listener and understanding and caring friend, maybe they just feel sorry for me for some reason and humor me. Whatever. These friends seem to be strong, competent, and widely respected by their peers, and I like surrounding myself with people whose competence I respect, regardless of gender. A characteristic I share with most of these friends is involvement in, and commitment to, a long term, stable, valued marital relationship.
[...] it? Also, if you end up writing a blog entry about this (which happened several times following the “Can Guys and Girls Be Friends” entry), let me know and I’ll link to it [...]