Who Should Rachel Have Ended Up With: Ross or Joey?
If you like this entry, feel free to check out my Kickstarter campaign for a board game I invented called Viticulture. If enough people pledge, I might be able to be convinced that Ross and Rachel are right for each other.
During yesterday’s sanction on avid commentors, I got more comments off the blog about Ross vs. Joey than on the blog! So I’ve decided to make it the topic of today’s post. For the sake of this argument, please suspend reality and assume that Friends is really, really important.
I’d also ask that you give Joey a chance. Sure, the show was written to emotionally drive us towards (spoiler alert!) the inevitable Ross and Rachel reunion, but does that make it right? Or were we falsely manipulated?
I would contend that we were. The writers of the show made us feel like Ross and Rachel should be together thanks to a string of dramatic moments, breakups and reunions. But really, let’s look at what’s behind those moments:
Ross pines for Rachel. Early on, Ross pines for Rachel a lot. Rachel is out of his league. So naturally, as viewers we root for the underdog. But just because someone pines for someone else doesn’t mean that they deserve them. That’s why stalkers are weird.
Rachel chooses Ross (early on) for no reason other than the fact that he likes her. There’s a beautiful moment on Friends when Rachel watches a video from high school prom night when Ross, on a moment’s notice, gets dressed to be Rachel’s date because hers has ditched her. The date shows up at the last minute, Rachel prances away, and Ross looks dejected. Back in real time, Rachel sees the gesture and kisses Ross. It’s awesome. But think about it–did Rachel develop feelings for Ross at that moment? Before that she never batted an eye at him. Suddenly she sees that he cares, and so she likes him. It’s human nature to like those who like us. But real relationships go way deeper than that.
Ross chooses Rachel for no other reason than she’s hot. It’s unfortunate, but it’s true. Show me the qualities that Ross sees in Rachel. Ross, although a bit particular, is good at heart. He cares about the people around him. He sacrifices for them. He’s also extremely intelligent. Rachel, on the other hand, is extremely self-centered, selfish, and kind of a doof (that’s a new word meaning “dumb goof”). She grows up a bit, especially when she has the baby, but what does Ross see in Rachel? Why doesn’t he see beyond the hotness to her selfishness? Quite frankly, she doesn’t deserve him.
They’re never happy together. This is a biggie, and one that the show cleverly manuvers around. You see, as viewers we like drama. Until Jim and Pam came along, we didn’t know that we could be so happy watching a couple simply be…happy. There is not a single episode of Friends when Ross and Rachel are together that they are not fighting or lying to one another. And more often than not, they’re breaking up, trying to get back together, or admitting they have feelings but doing nothing about it yet. If Ross and Rachel are meant to be, shouldn’t they have sustained something real and wonderful for at least a few episodes?
I simply don’t see compelling evidence that Ross and Rachel were “meant to be.” Now for the second part of my argument: Why Rachel and Joey are a much better pair.
Their personalities are a much better fit. Using my word from above, they’re both kind of doofs. Rachel is a waitress for several seasons; Joey is a struggling actor. Rachel eventually (and somehow miraculously–what, exactly, are her qualifications) gets a grown-up job at Ralph Lauren, and Joey eventually becomes a marginally successful actor. They evolve. But at heart they’re still doofs, and we love them for it. Also, they are both quite confident sexually (at least we are told). Strictly in terms of who they are, they make a great couple.
Joey is good for Rachel; Rachel is good for Joey. At a certain point, Rachel has matured past Joey’s man-boy lifestyle, so she has something to teach Joey about love, relationships, and personal development. Joey, in turn, adds levity, humor, and compassion to Rachel’s sharp, selfish persona. They have real ways that they can grow with and challenge each other.
They are happy together. Rachel and Ross just fought all the time. Rachel and Joey actually get along! Why is this so overlooked?! Joey even proposes to Rachel at some point (or he gets ready to propose? I can’t remember) simply so she can have someone by her side to raise the baby.
Granted, I’ll contend that after writing about Ross and Rachel for 10 seasons, the writers had to let Ross and Rachel end up together. But I’m saying that they shouldn’t have spoonfed that love story when there was a much better one to be told. If Rachel and Joey were real people, they would unquestionably be the better fit.
What do you think? Obviously I’m open to your thoughts. And if you just want to cast a vote and walk away, please do so in the poll below.
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You make a good case. I’ll cast a vote for Joey. When you stop to consider the points above, Ross really isn’t very different from Gunther–he just had access to Rachel outside of a coffee shop.
While Rachel is carrying his child, Ross carelessly parades girlfriends past her and everyone else. He brings them to the their apartment. He neglects her needs.
Ross is childish–the most self-centered and least self-aware of all the characters.
Joey is so much more loving, giving, fun, handsome, and romantic (I’d call him “Mrs. Katty.”)
I had forgotten about how Ross treated Rachel when she was pregnant. Was that just one episode or throughout the pregnancy? That doesn’t sound very respectful.
Oh how wholeheartedly I disagree… I’m actually going to start with your points about Joey:
1. They are a relatively good match, but the same reasoning could be applied to the success of their friendship. Just because they get along well doesn’t mean that a dating relationship would be good for them. Especially since, for two very sexually confident people, they aren’t sexually compatible! The reason that they break up in the end (and yes, this is likely a plot contrivance to get Ross and Rachel together, but it’s still valid!) is that Rachel keeps slapping Joey when he makes a move on her, and Joey can’t even get her bra off… Not a winning day for either of them.
2. Boy, you don’t like Rachel very much, do you? I would consider Rachel to be one of the least selfish Friends by the end of the show. She attempts to help her sisters repeatedly (which is an extraordinarily difficult feat), she throws parties for Phoebe and Monica when they are getting married (even though she’s like… 60 percent happy for them and only 40 percent jealous) and she is an amazing maid of honor to Monica (the REAL sharp, selfish Friend). I don’t think that much of Joey’s growth can be attributed to Rachel, except for in the context of being his roommate. They don’t gain much in the transition from friends to a romantic relationship. Plus, this might just be me, but I can’t stand when Matt LeBlanc attempts to act emotional… Skip ahead to about 1:20 and you’ll see what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiqX_-pA7IE.
3. They aren’t sexually compatible (as I said above) and Joey actually proposes to Rachel twice, but I don’t think it’s quite the boon to your case that you think it is. The first time, he proposes to Phoebe because he thinks she’s pregnant, and then when he finds out it’s Rachel, he gives her the exact same speech (and hasn’t even gotten the ring back from Phoebe!). The second time, he finds the ring that Ross’s mom had given him, drops it and then holds it up. Rachel assumes he’s proposing (a mistake we’ve all made, I’m sure) and says yes because she’s still post-partum and hormonal. Joey is too immature to just say “Oh no, I found this, my b.” and likewise too immature to tell either Ross or Rachel what really happened until confronted with the truth hours later.
Whew. I have more to say but my fingers are starting to cramp, so I’ll see what other people think before continuing my rant =).
Ok I also can’t overlook the glaring errors in your second Ross point. While that’s how their relationship started, it’s not why Rachel starts to like him. There’s been quite a bit of romantic foible leading up to that point, and the video is the plot point that makes all of that a moo point (oh Joey). Before that, Rachel had come to the conclusion (yes, after finding out that Ross liked her) that she wanted to give him a shot. Having known someone for a good portion of your life, you may need a shock like finding out that they have feelings for you to reconsider them as an option. Once she does, he’s dating Julie and she waits and pines for him for a good length of time. Her feelings may have been spurred by finding out that he liked her, but the fact that they lasted even when he had clearly found someone else means that it wasn’t just an easy date. Saying that Rachel develops feelings for him “in that moment” completely overlooks that she had already been trying to date him for most of a season.
Ali–Oo, this is getting good. And it’s a healthy reminder to me that some people know WAY more about Friends than I do. It honestly has been a while since I’ve watched the show (except for the New Year’s Episode, which I keep on my TiVo and watch several times a year).
I’ll address your points in order:
1. This is a good point, but it’s clearly just comedic writing. Do you REALLY believe that Rachel would slap Joey in those circumstances? Do you REALLY believe Joey can’t take of Rachel’s bra? As everyone knows, Rachel wears a standard two-hook back-clasp Victoria’s Secret size 34C. Sure, it’s reinforced for extra padding, meaning it’s a little tight in the back, but it’s nothing your average guy couldn’t take off with one hand without looking. Didn’t Joey once take off someone’s bra without even touching her?
2. I think you hit the nail on the head with Rachel–there’s always a “but.” She might plan a party for Phoebe, but secretly she’s doing it for herself. I honestly have nothing against Rachel, and I think she grows over the course of the show, but she is pretty oblivious to those around her, indicated to me that she’s quite self-centered.
3. Okay, I’m glad you cleared that up. I had forgotten exactly what had happened.
4. The Rachel/Julie thing really got under my skin. I don’t think Rachel liked Ross during that time–she just wanted what she couldn’t get. If she truly wanted Ross to be happy, then she’d be nice to Julie and support Ross. Instead, she spend quite a bit of time mocking Julie behind her back. I don’t think that counts as “pining” for Ross. It is fair to correct my mistake that Rachel developed feelings for Ross in that moment. But as wonderful as that moment feels, there’s still something off about it. It’s like she’s just rewarded Ross for something. Ross did this wonderful thing and cared (cares) for her, and she rewards him with herself. It goes to show you how highly Rachel thinks of herself.
This is one pop quiz that I was very well prepared for. I feel like I should apologize for the level of detail- I wish I could say that I didn’t know it off the top of my head, but that would unfortunately be a lie… Also, I still vote that you learn “The Routine”
1. If we’re going to remove all of the shenanigans that occur just for the sake of humor there would be no show!! It’s over the top, but it’s there to make the point that they are better off as friends. It might be tough to believe, but I say at its most basic, their sexual incompatibility stands as a valid point.
4. I agree that jealousy isn’t any better motivation for a relationship than liking someone who likes you (significantly worse actually), but I think that the changing accusation shows that there is at least depth to her feelings. As a girl I can say that the bickering behind Julie’s back is unfortunately fairly accurate. Nothing brings out the catty in a girl like watching someone you like date someone else. Being happy for a friend takes time, and there is some hurt to work through before that point. Did she do it maturely? Not in the slightest. Could I see it happening in real life? You bet. Finally, at that payoff moment when Rachel kisses Ross, he had made the list of her flaws (which everyone MAJORLY overreacted about) and this was the moment she forgave him. That was actually a well-scripted resolution, because the heart of their argument was that he had made a list of surface reasons not to be with her, and this reminded her that the “Not Rachem” in Julie’s con list actually meant something.
I think that our disagreement may actually be stemming from my total willingness to drink the Friends Kool Aid, and your insistence upon thinking for yourself . While some of the plotlines and contrivances are tough to swallow, I think having watched the show from a young age (8?) makes me a little more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and go ahead and buy what they’re trying to sell me.
1. Hmmm…so you truly believe that Rachel and Joey would be sexually incompatible in real life? You’re under oath here, Ali. Blog oath.
4. Oh sure, I’m not saying her cattyness isn’t realistic. But it doesn’t reflect well on her. It’s simply a classic case of spoiled pretty girl wants what she can’t have.
Tell me this: Why does Ross love Rachel? Give me 5 good reasons, if you don’t mind.
Oh boy. You’re asking me to define why people love each other?! If I manage that I should be making far more than an intern’s salary.
1. He’s attracted to her. It’s shallow but it’s definitely important.
2. She’s a caring individual. Sure, she was a spoiled daddy’s girl, but you can’t ignore the fact that she was best friends with Monica even when she was fat (among other examples of her caring).
3. She works to change her life. She finds something that she’s passionate about and she goes after it. The chances of her succeeding in the real world are admittedly low, but at least she tried!
4. She has self-respect. She didn’t take him back when he cheated on her, which shows integrity, confidence and maturity beyond that of a selfish daddy’s girl.
5. She’s funny. Even in the context of the show, she has a good sense of humor and can tease her friends as well as take a joke.
Also, since I’m under blog oath I don’t want to be frivolous, but anything is possible! I don’t know them personally, so maybe the chemistry just isn’t there. But if necessary, I will concede that it seems highly unlikely.
I started writing this after I read your #1 point about Rachel being out of Ross’ league, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, before I read your #3. I always thought Rachel was the least likeable character on the show, and never understood her popularity. She is indeed, as you say, selfish as well as egotistical and at times, just mean. Did anyone else notice all the digs she took at Chandler, who was maybe the most likeable character on the show? Her lack of redeeming qualities, other than her looks, makes me think that in fact, Ross was out of her league, not the other way around.
But, of the three male characters, I found Ross to be the most annoying, thus, I think he fits better with Rachel than Joey. In the later seasons, Ross kind of starts to get meaner and vain as well, which makes me think he is better suited for Rachel (albeit they would be an unhappy bickering couple). Joey on the other hand, is sweet and kind-hearted- too good for Rachel. So in the end, I think Rachel ended up with the right guy.
Neha–Thanks for your thoughts. I think I should revise the “out of his league” to specifically reference looks. I think Rachel is much better looking than Ross. In other ways, as I described above (including Rachel’s pettiness), Ross is out of Rachel’s league.
That said, you have some good points about Ross becoming meaner and more vain later in the show. That is true. But as that happens, I think Joey becomes the better option. Joey is almost always good hearted (except when it comes to comical fights with Chandler) and I truly think he would make Rachel a better person. Whereas Ross and Rachel will end up being a mean, vain, bickering old couple. Do you really want that for them?
Another anti-Ross point. Ross is a deadbeat dad. Think very carefully about how often Ross mentions visiting his first child (Ben), has him over for Dad time, or mentions paying child support. Quite frankly, it wasn’t often enough.
Joey, on the other hand, is a true caretaker. He genuinely loves the chick and the duck (unlike Ross, who I’m assuming out of absolutely thin air actually resents Ben because he’s a reminder of his failed relationship with Carol), and, in fact, gets Monica and Chandler a chick & duck of their own (that he ends up with, in true caretaker fashion).
Whereas Ross is no better than those drug addict parents who sell their children for 2 crack rocks, a half-eaten bologna sandwich, and a pocketful of shame, Joey is a model of paternal care.
(I’m making all of this up, but it sounded worthwhile in my head.)
That’s a great point about Ross being a deadbeat dad–he hardly ever sees Ben! I missed the episode where Ross sells Ben for crack, but it seems like the type of thing he would do. Joey is a much better caretaker. I think Joey and Rachel would have better old love than Ross and Rachel, and better chemistry in the early goings as well (which the writers somehow couldn’t bring themselves to let happen).
Is it any surprise that Ben ended up cold and alone, singing for the last couple of puffs on still-lit cigarette butts and spare change, and pandering to the blogosphere in the tournament of cuteness for the approval that he never got from his dad?
Like Ali, I know my sh&t when it comes to Friends. Not sure if that’s sad or not, but I digress…
When they first put Joey and Rachel together, I thought I liked it. But then it just got weird. Rachel isn’t out of Ross’s league; she’s grossly out of Joey’s. Sure, she waitressed at the coffee shop for a season or two, but she also found that menial job at Bloomingdale’s, which led to a better job at Ralph Lauren. What’s my point? Rachel’s character evolved throughout the 10 seasons, and Joey really didn’t. Actually, I think he got dumber and more child-like throughout. If you look back to the first season, he isn’t nearly as feeble as he ends up being (hence the accidental proposal to Rachel that should have been nipped in the bud immediately). Is Joey marriage/family material? Umm, no. He’s good comedy, but that’s about it. Rachel went from a spoiled, dependent daddy’s girl princess to a successful, career-driven single mother. (Well, not really, since she ends up with Ross in the end.) She does have her selfish moments, but overall, I think she’s a great character, and really, one of the most likeable ones on the show. Besides Chandler. Who doesn’t love Chandler?
Ross and Rachel belong together. As Phoebe said in the infamous prom episode–”He’s her lobster.” He’s been in love with her since high school, but she doesn’t realize she’s in love with him until she sees him “that way.” Ali’s right–she pined over Ross for a good part of the 2nd season while he was with Julie. Then he broke up with Julie, and they did the whole cat and mouse thing until they finally ended up together. If anything, their on-again, off-again status over the years shows they had true love for each other, but the timing was never really right until it WAS right. I thought it was a great way to end the show.
Side note: Does anyone else think Monica got annoyingly screechy the last season? I could have done with less of her.
Okay, I’ve made myself look pathetic enough for one day.
Tracy–Thanks for your comment. I’ve always been impressed with your knowledge of Friends.
You have a good point about Joey not evolving all that much. That’s fair. I think he matures a little bit, but a lot of his comedy still comes from him being a doof (yeah, I’m sticking with that word).
I’m not with you on the timing argument, though. The Office tried that for a while, but in the end Jim and Pam made a choice to be together, and they stuck with it. And they still have plenty of chemistry without doing the on-again/off-again thing. It is possible. If Ross and Rachel were truly each others’ lobsters, they would have chosen to be together. And we, as the audience, would have supported that choice in the same way that we supported Chandler and Monica.
Perhaps the fact that Ross and Rachel’s relationship is a bit imperfect is the EXACT reason they are perfect for each other. Plus Ross is a paleontologist (really into dinosaurs) making him the total package.
Molly–I considered that point, the whole idea that imperfection is good and opposites attract. But wouldn’t Ross be more intellectually stimulated and satisfied with someone who is as curious about the world as he is?
I guess that depends on how you define “intelligence”…. What about the fact that despite obvious “book smarts” – Ross is ridiculously socially awkward?! I think Rachel’s common sense and superior people skills (intelligence not taught in schools) are way more valuable in life and when building a successful relationship. Plus she is better looking.
That’s true–maybe they balance each other out in book smarts vs. social smarts. I just can’t imagine Ross being intellectually fulfilled by talking with Rachel.
For the sorority girl to end up with the kind-hearted and struggling hot guy is stereotypically where I would have put them in the real world. But I think that Ross and Rachel are the ideal of opposites attracting.. They fulfill the flaws in the other.
I think that Joey’s dim-witted but well-intentioned ineptitude is harder to overcome for Rachel than Ross’s idealistic tendencies. And I think Ross likes Rachel because she helps him feel normal. You can’t fix stupid, but you may warm cold.
Ali–Wow, well done! I honestly didn’t think it was possible, but you convinced me that there are valid reasons for Ross to love Rachel. I’m a believer. (Although I’d still pick Joey for her.)
Obviously I am completely in the Ross/Rachel camp, but I just have to say this:
I really believe that if Rachel and Joey had gotten together and somehow made it last to the end, you would be saying that it was completely unrealistic that they could make it work. Joey hasn’t had a serious girlfriend, despite his “relationships” with the hundreds of other girls he dated, so why on earth would he be able to change for Rachel? I just don’t see that happening.
I think this is a real life example of wanting something you can’t have, Jamey.
Adrienne–You touch upon a common rom com trope–that the “playboy” can find the right woman and immediately settle down with her. I think you’re right. That would have been unrealistic. But I’d compare it to Barney and Robin on How I Met Your Mother. Barney truly loves Robin, and a big part of that is their sex life–Barney is really excited by the idea of being with Robin in that way, so he’s no longer interested in filling that void with other women. For some reason that makes sense to me, just like Joey and Rachel.
Well played with that last line. Well played. We’ll see what the votes say in the end.
I compare Joey and Rachel to Barney and Robin too! I also see Ross and Rachel as the Ted and Robin… they tried at the beginning but they realized they were too different and didn’t suit each other. I think Ross and Rachel never realized this though. Whereas I think with Barney and Robin… their characters compliment each other a lot more. They’re best friends, but they also bring out the best in each other. Both are kind of broken people but accept and love each other for their flaws.
My problem with Ross and Rachel as a couple is the seriousness and maturity gap. My favorite example to use is from The One in Barbados Part I, where Ross is giving his speech and both Joey and Rachel giggle at ‘homo erectus.’ Ross rolls his eyes. See, I love that Rachel and Joey can act like such kids together! But at the same time there’s the sexual tension like in The One With Rachel’s Dream, and the underlying feelings.
Rachel also helps Joey grow as a person. She’s always there for him when he needs her, and his character only really started to mature when he realized he was in love with her. Ross and Rachel have never made me go ‘Awwww,’ like I did when Joey held Rachel during the scary movie, or like when he was trying to use ‘method acting’ and was talking about all the times he wanted to grab her and kiss her, or like when he’s trying to convince himself he doesn’t have feelings for her while eating cereal and as soon as she walks out and says “Morning, sweetie,” his inner voice goes “I love you.”
And obviously he’s there for her when he’s willing to marry her both when he finds out she’s pregnant and when she has the baby. Joey is a generally loving, caring person, even though he can be misguided at times.
And these are the reasons why I think Rachel should have ended up with Joey and Ross should have ended up with Charlie.
Tegan! I don’t know where you came from, but I’m glad you came out of nowhere to support my Rachel/Joey theory. Those are fantastic supporting examples for why Rachel and Joey belong together AND why Ross and Rachel are not meant for each other.
Ha ha…well I’m glad that this important issue was one your mind. Feel free to stick around for some of the other important issues discussed on this blog, such as today’s poll on cuteness.
Hey me too! I think that Joey and Rachel were much cuter together than Ross and Rachel. At the very base level, Ross has some serious commitment issues ie. Multiple marriages, sleeping with someone when you just broke up or took a break (not only the Ross and Rachel break thing but before when he found out Carol was lesbian, he and Phoebe were about to go at it). Besides how do you as a woman really forget that at anytime you have a break, he’ll go out and cheat on you. Joey seems like an overall nicer and more honest guy. Rachel and Joey had great chemistry. Wish they would’ve been given more of a shot.
Barney/Robin are actually more like Ross/Rachel, and Ted/Robin are more like Joey/Rachel; the difference being Ted is more the “Ross” character and Barney is more the “Joey” (although, I would say Barney is actually more like Chandler. The Joey in the HIMYM world is Marshall).
Ted and Robin are friends who get on well, tried a relationship, it didn’t work, went back to being friends. Barney/Robin, like Ross/Rachel, have an on/off-agin, sometimes at each other’s throats, relationship, spanning the majority of the series. Like with Ross/Rachel, you just know that Barney/Robin are meant to be and going to end up together.
The point you made about the maturity gap; I disagree, because in those episodes when Rachel had a crush on Joey, they dumbed her character down to Joey’s level. So in actual fact, when you say there’s a maturity gap between Ross and Rachel, there’s also a maturity gap between Joey and Rachel. Rachel grew as a person over the course of the show, Joey did the reverse. He got less mature and Rachel grew past that, thus, when it would come down to it, a relationship between them wouldn’t work for the same reason you think the Ross/Rachel relationship didn’t work.
Jen–Thanks for your comment. I had completely forgotten about Ross’s close call with Phoebe. Although I think Joey had some commitment issues too, I think they were very different than Ross’s. I, too, wish that Friends had given Joey and Rachel a better chance.
Woah! there are a lot of people here having their memory play tricks with them. First of all Joey never proposed or planned to do so to Rachel. The first time was when he suspected that someone was pregnant and as the kind-hearted great friend that he is he just stepped up to support her so that she wouldn’t end up a single mom, that’s even more obvious because he first proposed to Phoebe when he thought she was the pregnant one, and then used the exact same speech to propose to Rachel. Secondly he didn’t propose again to Rachel when her daughter was born, he just went to pick up something for her from under Ross’ jacket when the ring fell out of it’s pocket, he went down to pick it up and when Rachel saw it she just said “ok” because she assumed he was proposing and because Janice really messed with her head convincing her that Ross would just “abandon” her and the baby and go have a real family. Another thing, stop crucifying Ross for going to meet other women while Rachel was pregnant, Rachel kept doing the exact same thing until her belly started popping out so there are no saints there.
Now about who should have ended with who. I do agree that Rachel and Joey are a much better suited couple than Rachel and Ross ever where, however I never felt sure of Rachel’s feelings for Joey just like I never felt sure of her feelings for any of her other love interests on the show (the Italian guy in the beginning and her assistant are great examples). At first her interest was just sparked by her admiration for Joey’s character, she started to fall for Dr Drake Ramoray NOT Joey. And I remember perfectly the moment she decided to make a move on him how she ignored Monica’s advice under the excuse of being drunk and just wanting to do something crazy. Very romantic. And it was just when he got together with Charlie that her interest really fired up. Similarly to how Robin in HIMYM only started to have feelings for Ted when he finally got together with another nice girl that he really liked.
If I had to guess, then Rachel could have ended up with Gunther for all I care because she never in the show was capable of showing any true love for anyone else, but since I know how much Joey had so much in common in her and how he really loved her, I imagine she would probably mature a lot with him and learn to love and appreciate him the way he did with her.
In complete agreement with all your points. This is what I wrote in the Fan Forum:
I think if the writers had taken the ending of the episode, TOW Ross is Fine, and ran with it, the fans would have been fine with J/R’s relationship and here’s why:
1. Ross was already able to accept that both he and Rachel should move on as they had not been a couple for nigh on 6 years.
2. Joey was who RACHEL wanted (and vice versa). They did not choose each other out of desperation or as a back up but they truly fell in love. Right now, as I watch TOW the Stain on Nick@Nite, Joey was trying to convince Rachel to stay. He said, “I’m going to miss you so much. I just wish you could stay.” Awww … He could not imagine life without her.
3. Ross himself would have wanted Rachel to be happy and Joey made her happy. He also said that, if Rachel were to end up with someone else, he couldn’t think of anyone better than Joey, his co-bff.
Sure, some fans would still feel weird about it; I read such fan reactions all the time on GetGlue. But how many books have we read or shows/movies have we seen, where an ending was somewhat surprising or unsettling at first, but we would end up accepting it and thinking it was for the best for all involved anyway? See, that’s the way I see the J/R relationship. It was for the BEST — not only did they fall in love with each other, they already could live together so harmoniously (as evidenced by their roommate situation). The only thing that would change for them, lifestyle-wise, was that Rachel would move into Joey’s room (where Rachel would be able to offer Joey more than Phoebe had promised him if he ended up being her backup ) and Emma would have her own room in their apartment.
The Rachel getting off the plane was such a cop-out ending and, if those fans really think about it, can they imagine the bumpy road ahead for R/R? I know I can’t … Shudder!
JW–Great points. You know the show very well. I read a recent interview about whether or not they’ll ever get back together for a reunion show or a movie. It would be amazing, of course, but they said no. They certainly don’t need the money.
It is true, none of them would want to adulterate the sacredness that was/is FRIENDS. They’ve always said they wanted to leave the fans with their memories of this great show rather than come back and do a sub-par get-together movie just for the sake of it. Too bad, really. A few of them have (David Schwimmer, Lisa Kudrow) haven’t really been on mainstream radar lately.
I guess my one complaint with that (not your statement, but the stance of the actors) is the assumption that the movie would be sub-par. I think there are many ways it could turn out to be a disappointment, but with the right writer, there is a slim chance it could be incredible. I wonder if some have tried to write it and came up short.
This “olde question” could be argued and argued until each party is blue in the face and neither is going to agree with the other. But the main point is, she ended up with Ross, it was always going to be Ross and Joey was only another buffer in the way of Ross and Rachel getting together.
You do make some good points in favor of poor Joey, however. I think if they had tried putting Joey and Rachel together early on, as opposed to Ross and Rachel, there could have been something just as special, as what Ross and Rachel had, there but unfortunately Joey had gotten so dim-witted by season 9, that he just wasn’t compatible with anyone; even Rachel. They had to “dumb” her character down in the few episodes she and Joey tried being together, to put her on Joey’s level. And do not get me started on how awkward it was to watch Joey and Rachel try to be together. That was probably the l
This “olde question” could be argued and argued until each party is blue in the face and neither is going to agree with the other. But the main point is, she ended up with Ross, it was always going to be Ross and Joey was only another buffer in the way of Ross and Rachel getting together.
You do make some good points in favor of poor Joey, however. I think if they had tried putting Joey and Rachel together early on, as opposed to Ross and Rachel, there could have been something just as special, as what Ross and Rachel had, there but unfortunately, Joey had gotten so dim-witted by season 9, that he just wasn’t compatible with anyone; even Rachel. They had to “dumb” her character down in the few episodes she and Joey tried being together, to put her on Joey’s level. And do not get me started on how awkward it was to watch the two of them try to be together. I cringe just thinking about it! That was probably the lowest point in the show’s entire run.
Rachel would have been better off in Paris than ever being considered ending up with Joey!
This is awesome that the post ended up on fanforum.com! Not sure how that happened, but very cool.
Lisa, you’re totally right that we can’t change Joey, Ross, and Rachel’s fates–they’ve been decided. But it’s fun to discuss anyway.
I should mention–in reference to Joey’s dumbness–that Rachel is quite the airhead in the first few seasons herself. She grows into herself and finds niches in which she excels, but early on in those waitressing, short-skirted years, I think she probably shared the same IQ with Joey.
But see, you just hit the nail on the head with the “dumbness”. Perhaps, in the beginning, Joey and Rachel’s intelligence was on the same level. Although, I still think that’s stretching it, because Joey has always been significantly “dumber” than the rest-even in the first season when he could be quite witty. But like you said, Rachel grows. Her character matures. Joey, if anything, does the reverse; he gets dumber. So come season 9, when Rachel develops her crush on Joey, the idea of the two of them making a go of it as a couple, makes next to no sense; on Rachel’s part, because she has grown past Joey.
I have always felt, that the feelings she developed for Joey, after her dream, weren’t believable. Perhaps this is partly on Jennifer, because it’s no secret that she (and Matt) didn’t feel right and felt uncomfortable about the Joey and Rachel situation. So the awkward feeling being put across, and the lack of chemistry between them during those episodes, could be coming from that. But even with that aside, It’s still hard to believe.
That’s a fair point about the dumbness. I don’t think Rachel gets all that much smarter (not even close to Ross), but she certainly gets more savvy.
Great point about the dream. I think some might say that the dream helped her realize that she had feelings rather than caused them, but it’s debatable.
Ross duh , i’m sorry but what you wrote about Ross and Rachel is so no true . Ross was in love with her since he was 15 ,he loved her all along and she didn’t start a relationship with him because of the prom video. All the episodes before this showed us that she was so jealous about Julie and she had admited to Monica that she used to think Ross as her best friend but for the moment she learnt about his feelings she dreamt of him while she was on a date , she had a fantasy of him kissing her she fell in love with him and in the prom video she realized how much Ross loved her and how much she loved him. When they were together they were the happier they could be , yes they had their fights (something that made their relationship unique) but they were crazy for each other and we can see that through out the whole series .
With Joey they were not even a couple and the most obvious reason was that Rachel was not in love with him(she thought that she liked him ,something that dissapeared), she couldn’t even sleep with him because she felt nothing but friendship(and to tell the truth she was still in love with Ross).With Joey they were ”let’s call them couple” for only 3 episodes and it was the most pointless and akward thing , they made Joey less silly and Rachel non Rachel just because they wanted to put another obstacle between R’n'R .
Ross and Rachel were ,are and will be always perfect for each other and they didn’t fit with anybody else . Meant to be couple , they loved each other so extremely much.
And that’s the truth about the J/R thing she was not in love with him , she didn’t felt right to be with him .
Ross & Rachel had storylines in all the ten seasons and moments that showed us why they ended up together.!
“They are happy together.” You cant really judge that, since they were together for about a week, yes they were good friends and they were happy as that, but things can get complicated when you’re more than that.
Ross & Rachel had plenty of times that they were happy together, for entire episodes. Every couple has their fights but it shows you care. I believe Ross liked Rachel for more than just her looks, maybe at first during their College days, but they were around each other alot, and when you’re that close you can develop real feelings. I also doubt that Rachel would go out with him simply because he liked her. Lets not forget those months that Rachel thrived for Ross when he was with Julie, all she could think about was him. She could of even liked him before he got with Julie, you can like someone for so long yet never realize it until something hits you.
On comparing Joey & Rachel’s personality’s of both being a bit dumb, they don’t attract, opposites attract, hence why Rachel’s dumbness and Ross’s Intelligentness (Not a word, I know!) were a good pairing.
I think Rachel was better suited for Ross, because Joey practically slept with a different Girl everyday, in reality would you honestly want to start a life up with a guy who sleeps with girls and never calls them back, and she knew he did that.
I fully support the word “intelligentness.” May I also suggest “intelligentitude”?
Maria and Daniel, you both have good points about Ross. Trust me when I say that I am moved whenever I see the iconic Ross/Rachel moments. I still support Joey/Rachel over Ross/Rachel (as stated in my blog entry), but think the arguments for Ross/Rachel are valid too.
I agree with almost everything in your post. Joey was so sweet to Rachel, and Emma when she was born. The writers gave him some depth and responsibility when they had him fall for Rachel (meanwhile they turned Ross into a screaming jerk who couldn’t let Rachel out of his sight), and she was happy when she lived with Joey.
Ross and Rachel had good chemistry, but they had major trust issues that never got resolved, they stressed each other out, and I didn’t find them very likable together. Joey and Rachel had fun, they helped each other out, and I liked them together. To me, they were a much better match.
Mel–I agree with you agreeing with me. I think that’s a great reminder to everyone that whenever Ross and Rachel were together, they were fighting. Some might call that passion, but it seemed more like dysfunction and incompatibility to me.
[...] to my blog. This always makes me happy. Just the other day someone posted a Fan Forum link to my entry on who Rachel should have ended up with on the TV show Friends, and it re-enlivened the discussion [...]
I don’t think Ross and Rachel both are sane…. Though I agree that Ross shouldn’t be so jealous I feel that they were infact on a break and he did nothing wrong sleeping with chloe….
Rachel never cared about relationship with Ross. Remember the episode ” the one with the jelly fish” where Ross was asked to bear the entire responsibility on their relationship.. that is ridiculous because both were equally responsible…. This letter is a deal killer and Ross should have never gone back to Rachel considering her ego….
and just because only fewer episodes were shown about Ross taking care of Ben doesnt really mean he doenst care at all,,, infact there were very few episodes involving Ben.
I think Rachel is a big manipulative s**t who goes after every guy … remember
the interview at Ralph Lauren… putting out during the interview… the customer… her assistant… and others …. she is a s**t but not a wife material…. she complained about Ross’s jealousy but she was jealous too …
look at the instances of barney, Emily, toys shop girl….
I completely agree that Rachel should have ended up with Joey.
The whole “they’re sexually incompatible” argument should NOT be cited as a legitimate reason for them not being together as it was a plot contrivance suddenly introduced when the writers thought they had to force Ross and Rachel together. It has been used countless times on other shows (like George and Izzy on Grey’s) and it’s just a cheap and shallow cop-out.
Ross and Rachel had chemistry in the first few seasons but they very rapidly lost it afterwards. They would have been so much better as just exes. Rachel and Joey always had mutual chemistry and it only grew as the seasons progressed. Joey would have worked so much better as a paternal figure to Emma and that would have made the series so much more interesting.
The writers did NOT play out the romance between Joey and Rachel the way they should have (the back and forth “I have an unrequited crush” thing was tedious and very high-school) but it still could have worked for season 10 if the writers had had the balls to try something different.
Oo, tough question. It’s particularly tough because the only episodes of Dawson’s Creek I watched were the handful or so that I was mandated to watch with a girlfriend in college. So I definitely can’t do a full analysis. Pacey grew up to work for the Fringe department and fall in love with Anna Torv, so I’m going to say that Joey should have ended up with Dawson. It’s his creek, after all.
To be honest, I never really liked the Ross and Rachel couple. They were not that supportive or caring both as friends and as a couple. In fact, all their relationship was is fighting and sex. Their moments of friendship were practically non-existent to me and half of the time I wonder if there were friends or a thing I call “conditional companionship” where you’re only friends with someone because that someone is friends with your friends.
Apparently the reason why Joey and Rachel went to the dust so quickly after Season 10 (and apparently let Joey and Rachel never talk to each other again. hell, their goodbyes were even offscreen!) was because, from what I heard, the Ross and Rachel Fanatics (and trust me, there were A LOT) complaining and sending threats to the writers because they were not happy with the Joey/Rachel coupling. The writers followed their orders in order to save the ratings.
The Killer Queen–Thanks for sharing your insight about the fans and the writers. I didn’t know that. I still blame the writers for conditioning the fans to think that Ross and Rachel were meant to be…although some blame is on the fans’ shoulders for overlooking all of the fighting and bickering between Ross and Rachel (as you described).
I should give the writer’s some credit, though–after all, we’re still talking about Friends more than a decade after the last episode aired.
Everyone here this, I’m getting bored of Rachel and Ross its the same old same old it would be more interesting if Rachel and joey were together. I’m thinking about them all the time if the don’t get married it will brake my heart. Ross can’t kiss joey can
1. Fighting is not a sign of relationship weakness. I do not want to end up with someone I never fight with. Fighting implies feelings, implies passion.
2. Rachel is not a ‘doof.’ She’s spoiled, at the beginning, but in no way is she a doof.
3. On Rachel no ‘deserving’ Ross… I don’t know about that. Your opinion of Rachel is unfairly low and of Ross, unfairly high. He did some dumb things. Yes, for sweet reasons, but still… He didn’t tell her they were still married! And Ross didn’t choose her because she was ‘hot.’ They really worked well together. They had excellent chemistry.
4. Most importantly, Rachel did not start liking Ross because of the Prom video. At that point, she had had a crush on him for some time. She found out Ross liked her, and it made her consider a relationship with him, which she decided to pursue. She went to meet him at the airport with flowers, only to find him get off the plane with another woman. She spent several months pining for *him*, but when they almost clicked, Ross accidentally insulted her and hurt her feelings. The prom video happened a few episodes later, and it showed Rachel how long Ross had cared, and how often and how deeply she must have hurt his feelings before.
5. There are SEVERAL episodes where Ross and Rachel are not lying or fighting with each other. Most of season 2, they aren’t. While I will agree that as time wore on, their relationship got more ‘sitcommy,’ with conflict thrown in for dramatic purposes, that made them on-again, off-again. This is due to writing, however, and is not the characters’ faults. I will agree it is one of the show’s biggest flaws, because they had to *contrive* events to keep the two apart.
6. Rachel and Joey was weird. They realized it when they tried to be together. It didn’t work.
Been rewatching the second half of Friends since I last posted here. I don’t mind, I think, Joey falling for Rachel in season 8. It was at a *wildly* inappropriate time, as she was having his best friend’s baby, but the two had bonded while living together, and it’s conceivable that he would fall for her. I actually had an emotional response to his confession to her I didn’t have when I was younger. Her response was realistic–you could tell it killed her to break her friend’s heart. I actually really liked that.
Then season 9 comes along. Rachel went through a few bouts where the writers made her character too malleable to fit situations they wanted to create. Season 9 had more narrative misfires than any other season to date, but Rachel’s character was a big one. The season started with the hugely contrived ‘keep Ross and Rachel apart’ tactic of Joey’s ‘proposal’ and Rachel’s acceptance. After Ross and Rachel had several moving, tender moments, they keep them apart again. But then when Rachel ‘falls for’ Joey after having a single dream about him, the show devolves into a middle-school drama where 33 year old characters are saying things like “Oh my God, you like Joey, don’t you?” using the word ‘like’ for its romantic connotations which I haven’t heard since I was a teenager. I don’t believe a single moment of their relationship, or her ‘pining’ for Joey. They just don’t have the ‘it’ factor, the incalculable chemistry that is all-important in romance. Even if two people’s personalities seem to fit, the ‘chemistry’ can’t be forced. And the writers forced it. They also butchered Rachel’s character. I see now why you say she was a ‘doof.’ In season 9, she is, sometimes, a doof. For instance, laughing at “homo erectus” with Joey during Ross’s speech. Look how much Rachel and Joey have in common!… Except when in the nine previous years had Rachel ever displayed such a juvenile sense of humor?
Season 9 is the bottom of the Friends barrel for me. Rachel and Joey is part of the problem, but several characters make some unbelievable swerves.
James–I appreciate that you continue to research this topic. You definitely know way more than I do about this topic.
I think part of my labeling Rachel as a “doof” goes way back to earlier seasons. Correct me if I’m wrong, but for several seasons she’s not portrayed as a particularly intelligent person, right? Eventually she finds a career and becomes a fairly savvy professional, but because of those early seasons, I couldn’t imagine her ever having an intelligent or even compatible conversation with Ross. Ross is quite dorky (I say that with affection for his character), and I picture him with someone who can talk to him on his level and indulge his fascination with science and paleontology. Doesn’t Rachel just make fun of him for bringing up those topics?
I think that’s what I meant when I said Rachel wasn’t deserving of Ross, and perhaps “deserving” wasn’t the right word. It comes down to conversation, which I consider a top-3 element of a successful relationship. I simply can’t imagine Ross and Rachel having a conversation that is equally stimulating for both of them.
Compare their conversations to some of the conversations between couples on How I Met Your Mother. Most of their conversations are about “nothing,” but Lily and Marshall seem to have a true conversational connection. Or Jim and Pam on The Office–their conversations have a playfulness to them where you can see how they truly connect through humor. Perhaps it’s tough to squeeze conversations into 22-minute sitcoms, and maybe Ross and Rachel were having better conversations “off camera,” but I find it hard to believe.
In early seasons Rachel was certainly more spoiled, and I would never describe her as an intellectual, as I would for Ross. But I think it was clear that Rachel, despite her teasing (which, it should be noted, is one of those things that got more common only as the series went on for somewhat easy laughs) she really respected Ross’s intelligence. And Rachel wasn’t *stupid*, necessarily, so I can see that she could have intelligent conversations with Ross. You’re right, we might not see too many onscreen… But then again, how entertaining would it be to see them have an intelligent conversation? I’ll re-watch the first half of the series after I’m finished with this run through; it will be interesting to compare.
One of my favorite Ross and Rachel moments is in Season 3, after they’ve broken up. I can’t remember the episode, exactly, but Rachel has injured herself and Ross is taking care of her, neglecting to tell her that in doing so he’s skipping the opportunity to speak at some televised conference. There are playful moments there, and some sweet ones as well.
Especially telling is that the actors involved didn’t like the Joey/Rachel pairing. As they are the ones responsible for creating chemistry, they realized that Joey and Rachel didn’t have it. Ross and Rachel were puzzle pieces that fit together despite their very different shapes.
Ha ha…that’s a good point, it may not have been entertaining to see them have an intellectual conversation. I just want some indication that Rachel can relate to Ross on his level (and he needs to relate to her about her interests and passions as well).
I certainly think the two of them were smitten with each other, hence sacrificial acts like Ross not going to that conference. But I’ve also seen a lot of relationships in real life work out when smitten doesn’t equal true connection.
Let me know what you find after re-watching the first half of the series. Maybe keep track of the number of episodes where Ross and Rachel are happy together–no bickering, no fighting, just happily dating. And perhaps give some examples of a connection they have with each other that goes beyond their general smitten-ness with each other. If you want to do a guest entry on the topic, let me know.
I think some of your reasons are a little ridiculous. No offense. But they seem to be part of your list for no other reason other than that you couldn’t think of anything else to put.
1. Ross pines over Rachel? Well Rachel pines over Ross too.
2. She doesn’t like him just because he likes her. They shared their first kiss in the laundry mat and I believe that is when Rachel starts realizing the great guy in front of her. He gave her the confidence boost she needed. Not to mention she went after him when he left for China. She was in love with him before she saw the prom video.
3. He does not choose Rachel just because she is hot. Nothing in the show proves this. That is just your opinion. I’m not a huge fan of Rachel either but she has other great qualities about her that Ross loves besides her good looks.
4. Of course they are happy together. Until contrivances put in by the writers prevented them from staying happy. There had to be drama between them. One of the most iconic things about this show is the on again off again relationship between those two. Can you really even imagine the show without it?
As far as her relationship with Joey:
1. A lot of people are a lot alike but that doesn’t make them compatible with each other. Even so, Rachel grew to be a very successful woman. Joey, while becoming slightly more successful than he previously was, was still immature and stupid. I would say that Phoebe and Joey had more compatible personalities than Rachel and Joey.
2. You can say this about any relationship for any pair of people. My maturity and success compliments my friend’s selfish and childish behavior. In turn, he can teach me about letting loose and not taking life so seriously. Does that mean we’re perfect together?
3. They are happy as friends. Just because two people are happy as friends doesn’t mean they can make it work with a long term relationship.
You’re using all the reasons for why they are great friends for why should be together. There is a line between friend and boy/girlfriend. Rachel and Joey were never able to cross that line comfortably. Rachel was always uncomfortable when Joey tried to put the moves on her (pushing his hand away, or Joey never being able to get her bra undone) Also, Joey’s feelings seemed to come out of nowhere and they died really quickly. It was almost like he just had a crush on her. They made their relationship so awkward on purpose. So the audience would know that they didn’t belong together. They were too good of friends to be romantically involved.
Katie–Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You make some solid points about Ross and Rachel. It’s been a while since I watched the first few seasons of Friends, so I would need to go back and verify the reasons (other than hotness) that Ross likes Rachel. Can you give some examples?
I completely agree that Rachel evolved quite a bit over the course of the show. Joey did too, but perhaps not as much.
I see what you’re saying about complementing people. I think I better explained this in the comment just above yours. It’s all about conversation.
Thanks for your thoughts! I like that people are passionate about this topic.
I think this is. Totally wrong,I understand that we as viewers are supposeD to want ross and rachel together because that’s how the show was. Written but there is much more to it than that. As we all know ross has been in love with rchel for an extremley long time and.when chndler convinces him to let it go that’s when rachel finds out about how ross feels. Rachel was currentley dating a man when she finds out and when she goes on a date all she can see is ross in her head. She thinks to herself ‘I always choose the wrong guy to be with ross is kind and caring and. He’s been here all this time’ this is when she feels love for ross. From this point on rachel is very unhappy seeing ross with julie it makes her want ross even more she can’t believe what she’s missed out on. Ross later finds out about rachels feelings and eventually breaks up with julie rachel and ross end up being together and are happily together for the whole 2nd series+most of the 3rd! So they’re relationship was very good for a long time and if I remwmber rightly there reltionship only breaks down because of rachels job+ross’s job. From this point on they have other alous of each other relationships and kind of take it in turns to be je(another point showing they never truly stop loving each other). As for how ross supposedly treats rachel bad when she’s. Had the baby if you remembEr correctly rachel is the one that starts dating first and she explains to ross she wants to move on therefore ross trys to move on too,rachel gets upset and jealous which is kind of her own fault as she suggested moving on. But despite all that they’ve been through they end up confessing that they’ve always loved eachother and they want to be together forever;) this I think shows they are perfect for each other ever herd the saying opposites attract. If joey was meant to be with rachel then surley they would have been comfortable acting like a couple but they wernt they found it awkward unlike when rachel broke the line of friendship with ross and monica did with chandler;). The thing that always gets me is why didn’t joey+pheobe. Get together?!
A fair point, Samantha. Why didn’t Joey and Phoebe get together? I could see that working.
I really need to go back and watch the early seasons when Ross and Rachel were together. I really don’t remember many episodes when they were happily dating with no huge drama between them, but it’s been so long since I’ve watched them that I’m sure it’s possible.
Ross + Rachel = meant to be. Even when they broke up in season 3 I knew they would be endgame. It didn’t matter who they dated in between, I was confident that in the end, they’d come back to each other. Which they did Joey + Rachel were just awkward together. I knew right away that it wasn’t going to last. I felt like the writers were just throwing in an awkward fling between them for pure drama. And how can you be so sure they’d be happy together in the long-run? They were only together for a bit. Rachel would eventually have gotten tired of him. Not to mention that Joey, despite being good-hearted, was too dumb to make a serious relationship with Rachel work.
Sure, the writers set up Rachel and Ross to be together from the beginning. That doesn’t mean they’d be good for each other in real life. Based on the characters the writers created–not plot contrivances like Joey fumbling with Rachel’s bra (does anyone believe that would happen?!)–Joey and Rachel are considerably more compatible. I’m open to other perspectives, however. Perhaps you can share 3 concrete examples of how Ross and Rachel would be highly compatible in real life based on their characters in Friends.
Real life? Ross and Rachel’s real life was the show. Plot contrivances were a part of their real life. It’s not about whether it would happen in real life or not. It was the message behind it that mattered = Rachel and Joey were good friends, but it felt awkward for them to take it further. How can they be compatible when Joey is too dumb? And made Rachel dumber? They were good as friends…but as partners? It was laughable.
Ross and Rachel would end up together in “real life” – as you say – for many reasons.
1) they have a lot of history. You can not ignore that. It may be the biggest reason. They share their past, and it could make the biggest difference.
2) they both acted immature many times, but at the end of the day, their love for each other shone through
3) they compliment each other well
4) they loved each other despite their clashing flaws. They loved each other despite the fights they had. They accepted each other for who they were.
5) Rachel understood Ross like no other woman did, though she did not always like it. And vise versa.
6) they were such imperfect individuals that together they were perfect
7) chemistry
8) believe it or not, sharing a child brings many couples together/closer
And I would just like to add, just because we say Rachel + Joey were bad together does not necessarily mean Rachel + Ross were amazing together. It simply means that Ross was better for Rachel than Joey was for Rachel.
Rachel and Joey looked and sounded way too cheerful and fake, which was not “realistic”. Joey did not have the brains to keep Rachel happy in the long run. Ross and Rachel ‘s story in general was much more realistic.
At the end of the day, why does it matter what would have happened in “real life”. The fact of it is, Friends was just a show (to most of us) and reality to the characters, and it is therefore the most important world, and in that world, Ross and Rachel ended up together.
Thanks for sharing this list, Zee. I think we view compatible/healthy relationships in different ways, but that’s okay. Your line about Gunther was awesome, though.
I would have preferred if Joey and Rachel ended up together.
As much as I loved Ross, he didn’t respect Rachel much as a person. He had a crush on her from the beginning, but did he ever say why? Rachel was a spoilt brat in the beginning. He only like how attractive she was.
Joey kew her for ages, but its season 7/8 when he begins to have feelings for her. They develop after he’s known her for years and she’s matured up a little bit.
Another thing is, Rachel matured Joey as a person, (not in the relationship but as in the friendship when they were roommates), he was willing to change for her. If you see their friendship as well, they shared stuff together, she made him read her favourite novel and vice versa, he taught how to curse in italian, they watched movies together. If the writers would have develped their relationship, even f it started then, many fans would have enjoyed it.
Whilst, you never saw Ross and Rachel making the little things count. They just fought.
And usually I’m all for a love/hate relationship and how ppisites attract, but sometimes it feels the writers forced Rachel to go for Ross.
Ross and Joey were oth put in a position where they didnt want Rachel to leave. Ross when Rachel wanted to go to Paris. Stopping her at the last minute. Whining to OTHER people about it rather than confronting Rachel. Joey on the other hand, when he didnt want her to leave his apartment, he told her straight away (albeit it twisted words) and then gave her a reason not to go, and bought a baby crib.
Also with Rachel’s baby, you saw how Joey gave Emma his penguin toy, for a while, he took care of the baby with Racel (assumed as he was the room mate), it wasnt even his baby.This shows how mature he is. Even though Ross was the dad, we didnt see many moment with him and Emma when Rachel stayed with Joey.
Also,Pheobe and Rachel also talked once about Joey be the hottest. (Pheobe was single at that moment). If i was in a relationship, or was truly in love with Ross throughout the whole series, I wouldnt call my best friend hotter than my boyfriend
Im not sure, but I think it was Rachel (or maybe Chandler), but once Joey ran and starting talking jibberish and Rachel understood everything and all the others were confused. and she just said “I understand Joey”
So she understood Joey like no other woman
I purposely googled “rachel joey friends” just hoping I will run onto someone who agrees with me on this
Personally I HATED Ross Rachel pairing, I felt like it was so forced and the two of them as characters didn’t fit at all, two different and completely incompatible people. At the beginning it was tolerable (though annoying) but after he cheated on her (or “they were on a break”), and that lamest scene ever where they were breaking up for hours, I was honestly with all of my heart hoping that we saw the last of them as a couple.
Joey Rachel pairing on the other hand I loved. Those two characters obviously had a lot in common, got close while living together, were more physically attracted to each other than not, and then their friendship eventually started evolving. I saw no reason for why they wouldn’t work out as a couple, except for writers coming up with a lame excuse – how is it even possible that two people make out several times but then suddenly figure out that they don’t want to/can’t have sex?
Ok, even if the reason for their break up was “we’re too good friends to be able to be together”, W H Y did she suddenly have to get back together with Ross at the end of season 10?! *puke*
Basically I just don’t understand why did the writers feel the need to ruin otherwise an awesome show like that for me?
Well said, Riley. It’s too bad the show was at the whim of the writers. Does any–even those who think that Ross and Rachel should be together–believe that Joey wouldn’t want to sleep with Rachel? I certainly don’t. Even if I were best friends with Rachel, I would still want to sleep with her.
I was watching an episode when Joey confesses his feelings and Rachel doesnt feel the same way but her reaction to him nt talking to her was telling him a lie eventually so she could tal to him again. Even for a little while. When Ross and Rachel break up, she’s never had urges to talk to him r get back with him sraight away, has she?
It shows how she values her intimacy with Joey
If you watch the entire series, you see Rachel’s friendship evolve with Joey better than any of the other guys. As much asa I like Chandler, there were points you could see Chandler and Rachel were not that clse to each other, and with Ross and Rachel it was always a struggle to get along and understand if they were together or not. I love love/hate relationships but this one was too tedious. With Rachel and Joey, Rachel at first had a crush on Joey but let it go. They were close friends but their friendship strengthened when Rachel moved in with Joey. And then yousee Rachel having to the option to move back in with Pheobe but she doesnt becasue she likes staying with Joey. From this point, you see their friendship becoming stronger and thats when they beinning deeper feeling for each other. There is an episode when Rachel is hormonal and she doesnt detest the idea of having sex with Joey. She says, “I just want to do it with someone who wont take it too seriously, who’s experiencing and caring. (and hot)” and then she looks at Joey and they both shout n but come out of their bedrooms and contemplate it.
[...] from time to time. You may not be aware of it, but for a while now the blog entry I wrote about Rachel and Joey being a better match on Friends than Rachel and Ross has continued to attract commenters (93 comments, 1,000+ votes). People are [...]
Just want to say in response to the thoughts of Rachel and Joey being sexually incompatible that’s not entirely true. Rachel and Ross weren’t perfectly fine with sexual things when they first started, their flirting was awkward, their kissing was awkward, I mean Rachel laughed when Ross kissed her. Joey and Rachel can at least kiss and flirt, it was only when they tried to go any further than that then things got awkward, which is understandable. You cannot start a relationship with one of your best friends without things being a little awkward.
I think the show should have gone for the J/R scenario, or at least spent more time on a way to develop a better ending to the relationship, rather than awkwardness, maybe a few more episodes of a relationship, rather than 3. I think the R/R people have it right when they say the J/R relationship was just another thing to stand in the way of R/R but I also think that a LOT of people fell in love with J/R and that even though they were great friends, they could have been the perfect couple, they were just cute together. R/R together was wrong, I’ve never thought they matched and when they first got paired up at the beginning, to tell you the truth I thought it was just a way for the show to say that Rachel was maturing because she went out with someone she wouldn’t usually go for, was kind of annoyed when it went on for longer than that.
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You make a good case. I’ll cast a vote for Joey. When you stop to consider the points above, Ross really isn’t very different from Gunther–he just had access to Rachel outside of a coffee shop.
Trev–Don’t you have a theory that Gunther is the one for Rachel? This might be the time to describe that theory.
While Rachel is carrying his child, Ross carelessly parades girlfriends past her and everyone else. He brings them to the their apartment. He neglects her needs.
Ross is childish–the most self-centered and least self-aware of all the characters.
Joey is so much more loving, giving, fun, handsome, and romantic (I’d call him “Mrs. Katty.”)
Sounds like someone has a bit of a crush on Joey.
I had forgotten about how Ross treated Rachel when she was pregnant. Was that just one episode or throughout the pregnancy? That doesn’t sound very respectful.
Oh how wholeheartedly I disagree… I’m actually going to start with your points about Joey:
1. They are a relatively good match, but the same reasoning could be applied to the success of their friendship. Just because they get along well doesn’t mean that a dating relationship would be good for them. Especially since, for two very sexually confident people, they aren’t sexually compatible! The reason that they break up in the end (and yes, this is likely a plot contrivance to get Ross and Rachel together, but it’s still valid!) is that Rachel keeps slapping Joey when he makes a move on her, and Joey can’t even get her bra off… Not a winning day for either of them.
2. Boy, you don’t like Rachel very much, do you? I would consider Rachel to be one of the least selfish Friends by the end of the show. She attempts to help her sisters repeatedly (which is an extraordinarily difficult feat), she throws parties for Phoebe and Monica when they are getting married (even though she’s like… 60 percent happy for them and only 40 percent jealous) and she is an amazing maid of honor to Monica (the REAL sharp, selfish Friend). I don’t think that much of Joey’s growth can be attributed to Rachel, except for in the context of being his roommate. They don’t gain much in the transition from friends to a romantic relationship. Plus, this might just be me, but I can’t stand when Matt LeBlanc attempts to act emotional… Skip ahead to about 1:20 and you’ll see what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiqX_-pA7IE.
3. They aren’t sexually compatible (as I said above) and Joey actually proposes to Rachel twice, but I don’t think it’s quite the boon to your case that you think it is. The first time, he proposes to Phoebe because he thinks she’s pregnant, and then when he finds out it’s Rachel, he gives her the exact same speech (and hasn’t even gotten the ring back from Phoebe!). The second time, he finds the ring that Ross’s mom had given him, drops it and then holds it up. Rachel assumes he’s proposing (a mistake we’ve all made, I’m sure) and says yes because she’s still post-partum and hormonal. Joey is too immature to just say “Oh no, I found this, my b.” and likewise too immature to tell either Ross or Rachel what really happened until confronted with the truth hours later.
Whew. I have more to say but my fingers are starting to cramp, so I’ll see what other people think before continuing my rant =).
Ok I also can’t overlook the glaring errors in your second Ross point. While that’s how their relationship started, it’s not why Rachel starts to like him. There’s been quite a bit of romantic foible leading up to that point, and the video is the plot point that makes all of that a moo point (oh Joey). Before that, Rachel had come to the conclusion (yes, after finding out that Ross liked her) that she wanted to give him a shot. Having known someone for a good portion of your life, you may need a shock like finding out that they have feelings for you to reconsider them as an option. Once she does, he’s dating Julie and she waits and pines for him for a good length of time. Her feelings may have been spurred by finding out that he liked her, but the fact that they lasted even when he had clearly found someone else means that it wasn’t just an easy date. Saying that Rachel develops feelings for him “in that moment” completely overlooks that she had already been trying to date him for most of a season.
Ali–Oo, this is getting good. And it’s a healthy reminder to me that some people know WAY more about Friends than I do. It honestly has been a while since I’ve watched the show (except for the New Year’s Episode, which I keep on my TiVo and watch several times a year).
I’ll address your points in order:
1. This is a good point, but it’s clearly just comedic writing. Do you REALLY believe that Rachel would slap Joey in those circumstances? Do you REALLY believe Joey can’t take of Rachel’s bra? As everyone knows, Rachel wears a standard two-hook back-clasp Victoria’s Secret size 34C. Sure, it’s reinforced for extra padding, meaning it’s a little tight in the back, but it’s nothing your average guy couldn’t take off with one hand without looking. Didn’t Joey once take off someone’s bra without even touching her?
2. I think you hit the nail on the head with Rachel–there’s always a “but.” She might plan a party for Phoebe, but secretly she’s doing it for herself. I honestly have nothing against Rachel, and I think she grows over the course of the show, but she is pretty oblivious to those around her, indicated to me that she’s quite self-centered.
3. Okay, I’m glad you cleared that up. I had forgotten exactly what had happened.
4. The Rachel/Julie thing really got under my skin. I don’t think Rachel liked Ross during that time–she just wanted what she couldn’t get. If she truly wanted Ross to be happy, then she’d be nice to Julie and support Ross. Instead, she spend quite a bit of time mocking Julie behind her back. I don’t think that counts as “pining” for Ross. It is fair to correct my mistake that Rachel developed feelings for Ross in that moment. But as wonderful as that moment feels, there’s still something off about it. It’s like she’s just rewarded Ross for something. Ross did this wonderful thing and cared (cares) for her, and she rewards him with herself. It goes to show you how highly Rachel thinks of herself.
This is one pop quiz that I was very well prepared for. I feel like I should apologize for the level of detail- I wish I could say that I didn’t know it off the top of my head, but that would unfortunately be a lie… Also, I still vote that you learn “The Routine”
1. If we’re going to remove all of the shenanigans that occur just for the sake of humor there would be no show!! It’s over the top, but it’s there to make the point that they are better off as friends. It might be tough to believe, but I say at its most basic, their sexual incompatibility stands as a valid point.
4. I agree that jealousy isn’t any better motivation for a relationship than liking someone who likes you (significantly worse actually), but I think that the changing accusation shows that there is at least depth to her feelings. As a girl I can say that the bickering behind Julie’s back is unfortunately fairly accurate. Nothing brings out the catty in a girl like watching someone you like date someone else. Being happy for a friend takes time, and there is some hurt to work through before that point. Did she do it maturely? Not in the slightest. Could I see it happening in real life? You bet. Finally, at that payoff moment when Rachel kisses Ross, he had made the list of her flaws (which everyone MAJORLY overreacted about) and this was the moment she forgave him. That was actually a well-scripted resolution, because the heart of their argument was that he had made a list of surface reasons not to be with her, and this reminded her that the “Not Rachem” in Julie’s con list actually meant something.
I think that our disagreement may actually be stemming from my total willingness to drink the Friends Kool Aid, and your insistence upon thinking for yourself
. While some of the plotlines and contrivances are tough to swallow, I think having watched the show from a young age (8?) makes me a little more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and go ahead and buy what they’re trying to sell me.
1. Hmmm…so you truly believe that Rachel and Joey would be sexually incompatible in real life? You’re under oath here, Ali. Blog oath.
4. Oh sure, I’m not saying her cattyness isn’t realistic. But it doesn’t reflect well on her. It’s simply a classic case of spoiled pretty girl wants what she can’t have.
Tell me this: Why does Ross love Rachel? Give me 5 good reasons, if you don’t mind.
Oh boy. You’re asking me to define why people love each other?! If I manage that I should be making far more than an intern’s salary.
1. He’s attracted to her. It’s shallow but it’s definitely important.
2. She’s a caring individual. Sure, she was a spoiled daddy’s girl, but you can’t ignore the fact that she was best friends with Monica even when she was fat (among other examples of her caring).
3. She works to change her life. She finds something that she’s passionate about and she goes after it. The chances of her succeeding in the real world are admittedly low, but at least she tried!
4. She has self-respect. She didn’t take him back when he cheated on her, which shows integrity, confidence and maturity beyond that of a selfish daddy’s girl.
5. She’s funny. Even in the context of the show, she has a good sense of humor and can tease her friends as well as take a joke.
Also, since I’m under blog oath I don’t want to be frivolous, but anything is possible! I don’t know them personally, so maybe the chemistry just isn’t there. But if necessary, I will concede that it seems highly unlikely.
Ali, your comments/points, by far, make the most sense of any on this post. THANK YOU. *applauds*
I started writing this after I read your #1 point about Rachel being out of Ross’ league, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, before I read your #3. I always thought Rachel was the least likeable character on the show, and never understood her popularity. She is indeed, as you say, selfish as well as egotistical and at times, just mean. Did anyone else notice all the digs she took at Chandler, who was maybe the most likeable character on the show? Her lack of redeeming qualities, other than her looks, makes me think that in fact, Ross was out of her league, not the other way around.
But, of the three male characters, I found Ross to be the most annoying, thus, I think he fits better with Rachel than Joey. In the later seasons, Ross kind of starts to get meaner and vain as well, which makes me think he is better suited for Rachel (albeit they would be an unhappy bickering couple). Joey on the other hand, is sweet and kind-hearted- too good for Rachel. So in the end, I think Rachel ended up with the right guy.
Neha–Thanks for your thoughts. I think I should revise the “out of his league” to specifically reference looks. I think Rachel is much better looking than Ross. In other ways, as I described above (including Rachel’s pettiness), Ross is out of Rachel’s league.
That said, you have some good points about Ross becoming meaner and more vain later in the show. That is true. But as that happens, I think Joey becomes the better option. Joey is almost always good hearted (except when it comes to comical fights with Chandler) and I truly think he would make Rachel a better person. Whereas Ross and Rachel will end up being a mean, vain, bickering old couple. Do you really want that for them?
Another anti-Ross point. Ross is a deadbeat dad. Think very carefully about how often Ross mentions visiting his first child (Ben), has him over for Dad time, or mentions paying child support. Quite frankly, it wasn’t often enough.
Joey, on the other hand, is a true caretaker. He genuinely loves the chick and the duck (unlike Ross, who I’m assuming out of absolutely thin air actually resents Ben because he’s a reminder of his failed relationship with Carol), and, in fact, gets Monica and Chandler a chick & duck of their own (that he ends up with, in true caretaker fashion).
Whereas Ross is no better than those drug addict parents who sell their children for 2 crack rocks, a half-eaten bologna sandwich, and a pocketful of shame, Joey is a model of paternal care.
(I’m making all of this up, but it sounded worthwhile in my head.)
That’s a great point about Ross being a deadbeat dad–he hardly ever sees Ben! I missed the episode where Ross sells Ben for crack, but it seems like the type of thing he would do. Joey is a much better caretaker. I think Joey and Rachel would have better old love than Ross and Rachel, and better chemistry in the early goings as well (which the writers somehow couldn’t bring themselves to let happen).
Is it any surprise that Ben ended up cold and alone, singing for the last couple of puffs on still-lit cigarette butts and spare change, and pandering to the blogosphere in the tournament of cuteness for the approval that he never got from his dad?
http://jameystegmaier.com/2011/03/pet-please-46-broken-parking-meters/#comments
LOL so that’s the same Ben?! I knew it!
Also, if that’s the Ben we’re talking about, I would definitely watch that show. Friends: 2012.
It’d be a lot like Jersey Shore but with balding, baggy-eyed white guys and profane hookers who were 10-15 years past their prime.
Like Ali, I know my sh&t when it comes to Friends. Not sure if that’s sad or not, but I digress…
When they first put Joey and Rachel together, I thought I liked it. But then it just got weird. Rachel isn’t out of Ross’s league; she’s grossly out of Joey’s. Sure, she waitressed at the coffee shop for a season or two, but she also found that menial job at Bloomingdale’s, which led to a better job at Ralph Lauren. What’s my point? Rachel’s character evolved throughout the 10 seasons, and Joey really didn’t. Actually, I think he got dumber and more child-like throughout. If you look back to the first season, he isn’t nearly as feeble as he ends up being (hence the accidental proposal to Rachel that should have been nipped in the bud immediately). Is Joey marriage/family material? Umm, no. He’s good comedy, but that’s about it. Rachel went from a spoiled, dependent daddy’s girl princess to a successful, career-driven single mother. (Well, not really, since she ends up with Ross in the end.) She does have her selfish moments, but overall, I think she’s a great character, and really, one of the most likeable ones on the show. Besides Chandler. Who doesn’t love Chandler?
Ross and Rachel belong together. As Phoebe said in the infamous prom episode–”He’s her lobster.” He’s been in love with her since high school, but she doesn’t realize she’s in love with him until she sees him “that way.” Ali’s right–she pined over Ross for a good part of the 2nd season while he was with Julie. Then he broke up with Julie, and they did the whole cat and mouse thing until they finally ended up together. If anything, their on-again, off-again status over the years shows they had true love for each other, but the timing was never really right until it WAS right. I thought it was a great way to end the show.
Side note: Does anyone else think Monica got annoyingly screechy the last season? I could have done with less of her.
Okay, I’ve made myself look pathetic enough for one day.
~Tracy
Tracy–Thanks for your comment. I’ve always been impressed with your knowledge of Friends.
You have a good point about Joey not evolving all that much. That’s fair. I think he matures a little bit, but a lot of his comedy still comes from him being a doof (yeah, I’m sticking with that word).
I’m not with you on the timing argument, though. The Office tried that for a while, but in the end Jim and Pam made a choice to be together, and they stuck with it. And they still have plenty of chemistry without doing the on-again/off-again thing. It is possible. If Ross and Rachel were truly each others’ lobsters, they would have chosen to be together. And we, as the audience, would have supported that choice in the same way that we supported Chandler and Monica.
Perhaps the fact that Ross and Rachel’s relationship is a bit imperfect is the EXACT reason they are perfect for each other. Plus Ross is a paleontologist (really into dinosaurs) making him the total package.
Molly–I considered that point, the whole idea that imperfection is good and opposites attract. But wouldn’t Ross be more intellectually stimulated and satisfied with someone who is as curious about the world as he is?
I guess that depends on how you define “intelligence”…. What about the fact that despite obvious “book smarts” – Ross is ridiculously socially awkward?! I think Rachel’s common sense and superior people skills (intelligence not taught in schools) are way more valuable in life and when building a successful relationship. Plus she is better looking.
That’s true–maybe they balance each other out in book smarts vs. social smarts. I just can’t imagine Ross being intellectually fulfilled by talking with Rachel.
Not possible. EVERYONE can hold an intellectually stimulating conversation about dinosaurs. Even Rachel.
LOL. Touche.
For the sorority girl to end up with the kind-hearted and struggling hot guy is stereotypically where I would have put them in the real world. But I think that Ross and Rachel are the ideal of opposites attracting.. They fulfill the flaws in the other.
I think that Joey’s dim-witted but well-intentioned ineptitude is harder to overcome for Rachel than Ross’s idealistic tendencies. And I think Ross likes Rachel because she helps him feel normal. You can’t fix stupid, but you may warm cold.
“They fulfill the flaws in the other.” Interesting.
Ali–Wow, well done! I honestly didn’t think it was possible, but you convinced me that there are valid reasons for Ross to love Rachel. I’m a believer. (Although I’d still pick Joey for her.)
Yay! I’m glad to agree to disagree. Sorry again for being lengthy, only one person has ever accused me of being succinct
.
Obviously I am completely in the Ross/Rachel camp, but I just have to say this:
I really believe that if Rachel and Joey had gotten together and somehow made it last to the end, you would be saying that it was completely unrealistic that they could make it work. Joey hasn’t had a serious girlfriend, despite his “relationships” with the hundreds of other girls he dated, so why on earth would he be able to change for Rachel? I just don’t see that happening.
I think this is a real life example of wanting something you can’t have, Jamey.
Adrienne–You touch upon a common rom com trope–that the “playboy” can find the right woman and immediately settle down with her. I think you’re right. That would have been unrealistic. But I’d compare it to Barney and Robin on How I Met Your Mother. Barney truly loves Robin, and a big part of that is their sex life–Barney is really excited by the idea of being with Robin in that way, so he’s no longer interested in filling that void with other women. For some reason that makes sense to me, just like Joey and Rachel.
Well played with that last line. Well played. We’ll see what the votes say in the end.
I compare Joey and Rachel to Barney and Robin too! I also see Ross and Rachel as the Ted and Robin… they tried at the beginning but they realized they were too different and didn’t suit each other. I think Ross and Rachel never realized this though. Whereas I think with Barney and Robin… their characters compliment each other a lot more. They’re best friends, but they also bring out the best in each other. Both are kind of broken people but accept and love each other for their flaws.
My problem with Ross and Rachel as a couple is the seriousness and maturity gap. My favorite example to use is from The One in Barbados Part I, where Ross is giving his speech and both Joey and Rachel giggle at ‘homo erectus.’ Ross rolls his eyes. See, I love that Rachel and Joey can act like such kids together! But at the same time there’s the sexual tension like in The One With Rachel’s Dream, and the underlying feelings.
Rachel also helps Joey grow as a person. She’s always there for him when he needs her, and his character only really started to mature when he realized he was in love with her. Ross and Rachel have never made me go ‘Awwww,’ like I did when Joey held Rachel during the scary movie, or like when he was trying to use ‘method acting’ and was talking about all the times he wanted to grab her and kiss her, or like when he’s trying to convince himself he doesn’t have feelings for her while eating cereal and as soon as she walks out and says “Morning, sweetie,” his inner voice goes “I love you.”
And obviously he’s there for her when he’s willing to marry her both when he finds out she’s pregnant and when she has the baby. Joey is a generally loving, caring person, even though he can be misguided at times.
And these are the reasons why I think Rachel should have ended up with Joey and Ross should have ended up with Charlie.
Tegan! I don’t know where you came from, but I’m glad you came out of nowhere to support my Rachel/Joey theory. Those are fantastic supporting examples for why Rachel and Joey belong together AND why Ross and Rachel are not meant for each other.
Thank you, Tegan. That was awesome.
No problemo!
I came from Googling “Rachel should have ended up with Joey” and clicking on the first link that came up LMAO. xD
Glad you approve!
Ha ha…well I’m glad that this important issue was one your mind.
Feel free to stick around for some of the other important issues discussed on this blog, such as today’s poll on cuteness.
Hey me too! I think that Joey and Rachel were much cuter together than Ross and Rachel. At the very base level, Ross has some serious commitment issues ie. Multiple marriages, sleeping with someone when you just broke up or took a break (not only the Ross and Rachel break thing but before when he found out Carol was lesbian, he and Phoebe were about to go at it). Besides how do you as a woman really forget that at anytime you have a break, he’ll go out and cheat on you. Joey seems like an overall nicer and more honest guy. Rachel and Joey had great chemistry. Wish they would’ve been given more of a shot.
Barney/Robin are actually more like Ross/Rachel, and Ted/Robin are more like Joey/Rachel; the difference being Ted is more the “Ross” character and Barney is more the “Joey” (although, I would say Barney is actually more like Chandler. The Joey in the HIMYM world is Marshall).
Ted and Robin are friends who get on well, tried a relationship, it didn’t work, went back to being friends. Barney/Robin, like Ross/Rachel, have an on/off-agin, sometimes at each other’s throats, relationship, spanning the majority of the series. Like with Ross/Rachel, you just know that Barney/Robin are meant to be and going to end up together.
The point you made about the maturity gap; I disagree, because in those episodes when Rachel had a crush on Joey, they dumbed her character down to Joey’s level. So in actual fact, when you say there’s a maturity gap between Ross and Rachel, there’s also a maturity gap between Joey and Rachel. Rachel grew as a person over the course of the show, Joey did the reverse. He got less mature and Rachel grew past that, thus, when it would come down to it, a relationship between them wouldn’t work for the same reason you think the Ross/Rachel relationship didn’t work.
Jen–Thanks for your comment. I had completely forgotten about Ross’s close call with Phoebe. Although I think Joey had some commitment issues too, I think they were very different than Ross’s. I, too, wish that Friends had given Joey and Rachel a better chance.
Woah! there are a lot of people here having their memory play tricks with them. First of all Joey never proposed or planned to do so to Rachel. The first time was when he suspected that someone was pregnant and as the kind-hearted great friend that he is he just stepped up to support her so that she wouldn’t end up a single mom, that’s even more obvious because he first proposed to Phoebe when he thought she was the pregnant one, and then used the exact same speech to propose to Rachel. Secondly he didn’t propose again to Rachel when her daughter was born, he just went to pick up something for her from under Ross’ jacket when the ring fell out of it’s pocket, he went down to pick it up and when Rachel saw it she just said “ok” because she assumed he was proposing and because Janice really messed with her head convincing her that Ross would just “abandon” her and the baby and go have a real family. Another thing, stop crucifying Ross for going to meet other women while Rachel was pregnant, Rachel kept doing the exact same thing until her belly started popping out so there are no saints there.
Now about who should have ended with who. I do agree that Rachel and Joey are a much better suited couple than Rachel and Ross ever where, however I never felt sure of Rachel’s feelings for Joey just like I never felt sure of her feelings for any of her other love interests on the show (the Italian guy in the beginning and her assistant are great examples). At first her interest was just sparked by her admiration for Joey’s character, she started to fall for Dr Drake Ramoray NOT Joey. And I remember perfectly the moment she decided to make a move on him how she ignored Monica’s advice under the excuse of being drunk and just wanting to do something crazy. Very romantic. And it was just when he got together with Charlie that her interest really fired up. Similarly to how Robin in HIMYM only started to have feelings for Ted when he finally got together with another nice girl that he really liked.
If I had to guess, then Rachel could have ended up with Gunther for all I care because she never in the show was capable of showing any true love for anyone else, but since I know how much Joey had so much in common in her and how he really loved her, I imagine she would probably mature a lot with him and learn to love and appreciate him the way he did with her.
Ben–You have an excellent memory for Friends! Thanks for fact-checking for us.
In complete agreement with all your points. This is what I wrote in the Fan Forum:
I think if the writers had taken the ending of the episode, TOW Ross is Fine, and ran with it, the fans would have been fine with J/R’s relationship and here’s why:
1. Ross was already able to accept that both he and Rachel should move on as they had not been a couple for nigh on 6 years.
2. Joey was who RACHEL wanted (and vice versa). They did not choose each other out of desperation or as a back up but they truly fell in love. Right now, as I watch TOW the Stain on Nick@Nite, Joey was trying to convince Rachel to stay. He said, “I’m going to miss you so much. I just wish you could stay.” Awww … He could not imagine life without her.
3. Ross himself would have wanted Rachel to be happy and Joey made her happy. He also said that, if Rachel were to end up with someone else, he couldn’t think of anyone better than Joey, his co-bff.
Sure, some fans would still feel weird about it; I read such fan reactions all the time on GetGlue. But how many books have we read or shows/movies have we seen, where an ending was somewhat surprising or unsettling at first, but we would end up accepting it and thinking it was for the best for all involved anyway? See, that’s the way I see the J/R relationship. It was for the BEST — not only did they fall in love with each other, they already could live together so harmoniously (as evidenced by their roommate situation). The only thing that would change for them, lifestyle-wise, was that Rachel would move into Joey’s room (where Rachel would be able to offer Joey more than Phoebe had promised him if he ended up being her backup ) and Emma would have her own room in their apartment.
The Rachel getting off the plane was such a cop-out ending and, if those fans really think about it, can they imagine the bumpy road ahead for R/R? I know I can’t … Shudder!
JW–Great points. You know the show very well. I read a recent interview about whether or not they’ll ever get back together for a reunion show or a movie. It would be amazing, of course, but they said no. They certainly don’t need the money.
It is true, none of them would want to adulterate the sacredness that was/is FRIENDS. They’ve always said they wanted to leave the fans with their memories of this great show rather than come back and do a sub-par get-together movie just for the sake of it. Too bad, really. A few of them have (David Schwimmer, Lisa Kudrow) haven’t really been on mainstream radar lately.
I guess my one complaint with that (not your statement, but the stance of the actors) is the assumption that the movie would be sub-par. I think there are many ways it could turn out to be a disappointment, but with the right writer, there is a slim chance it could be incredible. I wonder if some have tried to write it and came up short.
This “olde question” could be argued and argued until each party is blue in the face and neither is going to agree with the other. But the main point is, she ended up with Ross, it was always going to be Ross and Joey was only another buffer in the way of Ross and Rachel getting together.
You do make some good points in favor of poor Joey, however. I think if they had tried putting Joey and Rachel together early on, as opposed to Ross and Rachel, there could have been something just as special, as what Ross and Rachel had, there but unfortunately Joey had gotten so dim-witted by season 9, that he just wasn’t compatible with anyone; even Rachel. They had to “dumb” her character down in the few episodes she and Joey tried being together, to put her on Joey’s level. And do not get me started on how awkward it was to watch Joey and Rachel try to be together. That was probably the l
This “olde question” could be argued and argued until each party is blue in the face and neither is going to agree with the other. But the main point is, she ended up with Ross, it was always going to be Ross and Joey was only another buffer in the way of Ross and Rachel getting together.
You do make some good points in favor of poor Joey, however. I think if they had tried putting Joey and Rachel together early on, as opposed to Ross and Rachel, there could have been something just as special, as what Ross and Rachel had, there but unfortunately, Joey had gotten so dim-witted by season 9, that he just wasn’t compatible with anyone; even Rachel. They had to “dumb” her character down in the few episodes she and Joey tried being together, to put her on Joey’s level. And do not get me started on how awkward it was to watch the two of them try to be together. I cringe just thinking about it! That was probably the lowest point in the show’s entire run.
Rachel would have been better off in Paris than ever being considered ending up with Joey!
This is awesome that the post ended up on fanforum.com! Not sure how that happened, but very cool.
Lisa, you’re totally right that we can’t change Joey, Ross, and Rachel’s fates–they’ve been decided. But it’s fun to discuss anyway.
I should mention–in reference to Joey’s dumbness–that Rachel is quite the airhead in the first few seasons herself. She grows into herself and finds niches in which she excels, but early on in those waitressing, short-skirted years, I think she probably shared the same IQ with Joey.
But see, you just hit the nail on the head with the “dumbness”. Perhaps, in the beginning, Joey and Rachel’s intelligence was on the same level. Although, I still think that’s stretching it, because Joey has always been significantly “dumber” than the rest-even in the first season when he could be quite witty. But like you said, Rachel grows. Her character matures. Joey, if anything, does the reverse; he gets dumber. So come season 9, when Rachel develops her crush on Joey, the idea of the two of them making a go of it as a couple, makes next to no sense; on Rachel’s part, because she has grown past Joey.
I have always felt, that the feelings she developed for Joey, after her dream, weren’t believable. Perhaps this is partly on Jennifer, because it’s no secret that she (and Matt) didn’t feel right and felt uncomfortable about the Joey and Rachel situation. So the awkward feeling being put across, and the lack of chemistry between them during those episodes, could be coming from that. But even with that aside, It’s still hard to believe.
That’s a fair point about the dumbness. I don’t think Rachel gets all that much smarter (not even close to Ross), but she certainly gets more savvy.
Great point about the dream. I think some might say that the dream helped her realize that she had feelings rather than caused them, but it’s debatable.
Ross duh , i’m sorry but what you wrote about Ross and Rachel is so no true . Ross was in love with her since he was 15 ,he loved her all along and she didn’t start a relationship with him because of the prom video. All the episodes before this showed us that she was so jealous about Julie and she had admited to Monica that she used to think Ross as her best friend but for the moment she learnt about his feelings she dreamt of him while she was on a date , she had a fantasy of him kissing her she fell in love with him and in the prom video she realized how much Ross loved her and how much she loved him. When they were together they were the happier they could be , yes they had their fights (something that made their relationship unique) but they were crazy for each other and we can see that through out the whole series .
With Joey they were not even a couple and the most obvious reason was that Rachel was not in love with him(she thought that she liked him ,something that dissapeared), she couldn’t even sleep with him because she felt nothing but friendship(and to tell the truth she was still in love with Ross).With Joey they were ”let’s call them couple” for only 3 episodes and it was the most pointless and akward thing , they made Joey less silly and Rachel non Rachel just because they wanted to put another obstacle between R’n'R .
Ross and Rachel were ,are and will be always perfect for each other and they didn’t fit with anybody else . Meant to be couple , they loved each other so extremely much.
And that’s the truth about the J/R thing she was not in love with him , she didn’t felt right to be with him .
Ross & Rachel had storylines in all the ten seasons and moments that showed us why they ended up together.!
“They are happy together.” You cant really judge that, since they were together for about a week, yes they were good friends and they were happy as that, but things can get complicated when you’re more than that.
Ross & Rachel had plenty of times that they were happy together, for entire episodes. Every couple has their fights but it shows you care. I believe Ross liked Rachel for more than just her looks, maybe at first during their College days, but they were around each other alot, and when you’re that close you can develop real feelings. I also doubt that Rachel would go out with him simply because he liked her. Lets not forget those months that Rachel thrived for Ross when he was with Julie, all she could think about was him. She could of even liked him before he got with Julie, you can like someone for so long yet never realize it until something hits you.
On comparing Joey & Rachel’s personality’s of both being a bit dumb, they don’t attract, opposites attract, hence why Rachel’s dumbness and Ross’s Intelligentness (Not a word, I know!) were a good pairing.
I think Rachel was better suited for Ross, because Joey practically slept with a different Girl everyday, in reality would you honestly want to start a life up with a guy who sleeps with girls and never calls them back, and she knew he did that.
I fully support the word “intelligentness.” May I also suggest “intelligentitude”?
Maria and Daniel, you both have good points about Ross. Trust me when I say that I am moved whenever I see the iconic Ross/Rachel moments. I still support Joey/Rachel over Ross/Rachel (as stated in my blog entry), but think the arguments for Ross/Rachel are valid too.
I agree with almost everything in your post. Joey was so sweet to Rachel, and Emma when she was born. The writers gave him some depth and responsibility when they had him fall for Rachel (meanwhile they turned Ross into a screaming jerk who couldn’t let Rachel out of his sight), and she was happy when she lived with Joey.
Ross and Rachel had good chemistry, but they had major trust issues that never got resolved, they stressed each other out, and I didn’t find them very likable together. Joey and Rachel had fun, they helped each other out, and I liked them together. To me, they were a much better match.
Mel–I agree with you agreeing with me. I think that’s a great reminder to everyone that whenever Ross and Rachel were together, they were fighting. Some might call that passion, but it seemed more like dysfunction and incompatibility to me.
[...] to my blog. This always makes me happy. Just the other day someone posted a Fan Forum link to my entry on who Rachel should have ended up with on the TV show Friends, and it re-enlivened the discussion [...]
I don’t think Ross and Rachel both are sane…. Though I agree that Ross shouldn’t be so jealous I feel that they were infact on a break and he did nothing wrong sleeping with chloe….
Rachel never cared about relationship with Ross. Remember the episode ” the one with the jelly fish” where Ross was asked to bear the entire responsibility on their relationship.. that is ridiculous because both were equally responsible…. This letter is a deal killer and Ross should have never gone back to Rachel considering her ego….
and just because only fewer episodes were shown about Ross taking care of Ben doesnt really mean he doenst care at all,,, infact there were very few episodes involving Ben.
I think Rachel is a big manipulative s**t who goes after every guy … remember
the interview at Ralph Lauren… putting out during the interview… the customer… her assistant… and others …. she is a s**t but not a wife material…. she complained about Ross’s jealousy but she was jealous too …
look at the instances of barney, Emily, toys shop girl….
Infact I should say, Ross is better than Rachel….
I completely agree that Rachel should have ended up with Joey.
The whole “they’re sexually incompatible” argument should NOT be cited as a legitimate reason for them not being together as it was a plot contrivance suddenly introduced when the writers thought they had to force Ross and Rachel together. It has been used countless times on other shows (like George and Izzy on Grey’s) and it’s just a cheap and shallow cop-out.
Ross and Rachel had chemistry in the first few seasons but they very rapidly lost it afterwards. They would have been so much better as just exes. Rachel and Joey always had mutual chemistry and it only grew as the seasons progressed. Joey would have worked so much better as a paternal figure to Emma and that would have made the series so much more interesting.
The writers did NOT play out the romance between Joey and Rachel the way they should have (the back and forth “I have an unrequited crush” thing was tedious and very high-school) but it still could have worked for season 10 if the writers had had the balls to try something different.
Well said, Jeremy. I couldn’t agree more.
couldn’t agree more.
Great text. Obviously Rachel should’ve picked Joey. They’re so more true than Ross and Rachel. And so flawless.
Yes!!! Thank you, Juliana!
I think the real question is should Joey have ended up with Dawson or Pacey. I’d like to see your take on that.
Oo, tough question. It’s particularly tough because the only episodes of Dawson’s Creek I watched were the handful or so that I was mandated to watch with a girlfriend in college. So I definitely can’t do a full analysis. Pacey grew up to work for the Fringe department and fall in love with Anna Torv, so I’m going to say that Joey should have ended up with Dawson. It’s his creek, after all.
To be honest, I never really liked the Ross and Rachel couple. They were not that supportive or caring both as friends and as a couple. In fact, all their relationship was is fighting and sex. Their moments of friendship were practically non-existent to me and half of the time I wonder if there were friends or a thing I call “conditional companionship” where you’re only friends with someone because that someone is friends with your friends.
Apparently the reason why Joey and Rachel went to the dust so quickly after Season 10 (and apparently let Joey and Rachel never talk to each other again. hell, their goodbyes were even offscreen!) was because, from what I heard, the Ross and Rachel Fanatics (and trust me, there were A LOT) complaining and sending threats to the writers because they were not happy with the Joey/Rachel coupling. The writers followed their orders in order to save the ratings.
The Killer Queen–Thanks for sharing your insight about the fans and the writers. I didn’t know that. I still blame the writers for conditioning the fans to think that Ross and Rachel were meant to be…although some blame is on the fans’ shoulders for overlooking all of the fighting and bickering between Ross and Rachel (as you described).
I should give the writer’s some credit, though–after all, we’re still talking about Friends more than a decade after the last episode aired.
Joey is sweet I love them together if their not to heather it will brake my heart I don’t think I could watch friends again so please…..
Everyone here this, I’m getting bored of Rachel and Ross its the same old same old it would be more interesting if Rachel and joey were together. I’m thinking about them all the time if the don’t get married it will brake my heart. Ross can’t kiss joey can
1. Fighting is not a sign of relationship weakness. I do not want to end up with someone I never fight with. Fighting implies feelings, implies passion.
2. Rachel is not a ‘doof.’ She’s spoiled, at the beginning, but in no way is she a doof.
3. On Rachel no ‘deserving’ Ross… I don’t know about that. Your opinion of Rachel is unfairly low and of Ross, unfairly high. He did some dumb things. Yes, for sweet reasons, but still… He didn’t tell her they were still married! And Ross didn’t choose her because she was ‘hot.’ They really worked well together. They had excellent chemistry.
4. Most importantly, Rachel did not start liking Ross because of the Prom video. At that point, she had had a crush on him for some time. She found out Ross liked her, and it made her consider a relationship with him, which she decided to pursue. She went to meet him at the airport with flowers, only to find him get off the plane with another woman. She spent several months pining for *him*, but when they almost clicked, Ross accidentally insulted her and hurt her feelings. The prom video happened a few episodes later, and it showed Rachel how long Ross had cared, and how often and how deeply she must have hurt his feelings before.
5. There are SEVERAL episodes where Ross and Rachel are not lying or fighting with each other. Most of season 2, they aren’t. While I will agree that as time wore on, their relationship got more ‘sitcommy,’ with conflict thrown in for dramatic purposes, that made them on-again, off-again. This is due to writing, however, and is not the characters’ faults. I will agree it is one of the show’s biggest flaws, because they had to *contrive* events to keep the two apart.
6. Rachel and Joey was weird. They realized it when they tried to be together. It didn’t work.
Good points! Thanks for chiming in, James.
Been rewatching the second half of Friends since I last posted here. I don’t mind, I think, Joey falling for Rachel in season 8. It was at a *wildly* inappropriate time, as she was having his best friend’s baby, but the two had bonded while living together, and it’s conceivable that he would fall for her. I actually had an emotional response to his confession to her I didn’t have when I was younger. Her response was realistic–you could tell it killed her to break her friend’s heart. I actually really liked that.
Then season 9 comes along. Rachel went through a few bouts where the writers made her character too malleable to fit situations they wanted to create. Season 9 had more narrative misfires than any other season to date, but Rachel’s character was a big one. The season started with the hugely contrived ‘keep Ross and Rachel apart’ tactic of Joey’s ‘proposal’ and Rachel’s acceptance. After Ross and Rachel had several moving, tender moments, they keep them apart again. But then when Rachel ‘falls for’ Joey after having a single dream about him, the show devolves into a middle-school drama where 33 year old characters are saying things like “Oh my God, you like Joey, don’t you?” using the word ‘like’ for its romantic connotations which I haven’t heard since I was a teenager. I don’t believe a single moment of their relationship, or her ‘pining’ for Joey. They just don’t have the ‘it’ factor, the incalculable chemistry that is all-important in romance. Even if two people’s personalities seem to fit, the ‘chemistry’ can’t be forced. And the writers forced it. They also butchered Rachel’s character. I see now why you say she was a ‘doof.’ In season 9, she is, sometimes, a doof. For instance, laughing at “homo erectus” with Joey during Ross’s speech. Look how much Rachel and Joey have in common!… Except when in the nine previous years had Rachel ever displayed such a juvenile sense of humor?
Season 9 is the bottom of the Friends barrel for me. Rachel and Joey is part of the problem, but several characters make some unbelievable swerves.
James–I appreciate that you continue to research this topic.
You definitely know way more than I do about this topic.
I think part of my labeling Rachel as a “doof” goes way back to earlier seasons. Correct me if I’m wrong, but for several seasons she’s not portrayed as a particularly intelligent person, right? Eventually she finds a career and becomes a fairly savvy professional, but because of those early seasons, I couldn’t imagine her ever having an intelligent or even compatible conversation with Ross. Ross is quite dorky (I say that with affection for his character), and I picture him with someone who can talk to him on his level and indulge his fascination with science and paleontology. Doesn’t Rachel just make fun of him for bringing up those topics?
I think that’s what I meant when I said Rachel wasn’t deserving of Ross, and perhaps “deserving” wasn’t the right word. It comes down to conversation, which I consider a top-3 element of a successful relationship. I simply can’t imagine Ross and Rachel having a conversation that is equally stimulating for both of them.
Compare their conversations to some of the conversations between couples on How I Met Your Mother. Most of their conversations are about “nothing,” but Lily and Marshall seem to have a true conversational connection. Or Jim and Pam on The Office–their conversations have a playfulness to them where you can see how they truly connect through humor. Perhaps it’s tough to squeeze conversations into 22-minute sitcoms, and maybe Ross and Rachel were having better conversations “off camera,” but I find it hard to believe.
In early seasons Rachel was certainly more spoiled, and I would never describe her as an intellectual, as I would for Ross. But I think it was clear that Rachel, despite her teasing (which, it should be noted, is one of those things that got more common only as the series went on for somewhat easy laughs) she really respected Ross’s intelligence. And Rachel wasn’t *stupid*, necessarily, so I can see that she could have intelligent conversations with Ross. You’re right, we might not see too many onscreen… But then again, how entertaining would it be to see them have an intelligent conversation? I’ll re-watch the first half of the series after I’m finished with this run through; it will be interesting to compare.
One of my favorite Ross and Rachel moments is in Season 3, after they’ve broken up. I can’t remember the episode, exactly, but Rachel has injured herself and Ross is taking care of her, neglecting to tell her that in doing so he’s skipping the opportunity to speak at some televised conference. There are playful moments there, and some sweet ones as well.
Especially telling is that the actors involved didn’t like the Joey/Rachel pairing. As they are the ones responsible for creating chemistry, they realized that Joey and Rachel didn’t have it. Ross and Rachel were puzzle pieces that fit together despite their very different shapes.
Ha ha…that’s a good point, it may not have been entertaining to see them have an intellectual conversation. I just want some indication that Rachel can relate to Ross on his level (and he needs to relate to her about her interests and passions as well).
I certainly think the two of them were smitten with each other, hence sacrificial acts like Ross not going to that conference. But I’ve also seen a lot of relationships in real life work out when smitten doesn’t equal true connection.
Let me know what you find after re-watching the first half of the series. Maybe keep track of the number of episodes where Ross and Rachel are happy together–no bickering, no fighting, just happily dating. And perhaps give some examples of a connection they have with each other that goes beyond their general smitten-ness with each other. If you want to do a guest entry on the topic, let me know.
I think some of your reasons are a little ridiculous. No offense. But they seem to be part of your list for no other reason other than that you couldn’t think of anything else to put.
1. Ross pines over Rachel? Well Rachel pines over Ross too.
2. She doesn’t like him just because he likes her. They shared their first kiss in the laundry mat and I believe that is when Rachel starts realizing the great guy in front of her. He gave her the confidence boost she needed. Not to mention she went after him when he left for China. She was in love with him before she saw the prom video.
3. He does not choose Rachel just because she is hot. Nothing in the show proves this. That is just your opinion. I’m not a huge fan of Rachel either but she has other great qualities about her that Ross loves besides her good looks.
4. Of course they are happy together. Until contrivances put in by the writers prevented them from staying happy. There had to be drama between them. One of the most iconic things about this show is the on again off again relationship between those two. Can you really even imagine the show without it?
As far as her relationship with Joey:
1. A lot of people are a lot alike but that doesn’t make them compatible with each other. Even so, Rachel grew to be a very successful woman. Joey, while becoming slightly more successful than he previously was, was still immature and stupid. I would say that Phoebe and Joey had more compatible personalities than Rachel and Joey.
2. You can say this about any relationship for any pair of people. My maturity and success compliments my friend’s selfish and childish behavior. In turn, he can teach me about letting loose and not taking life so seriously. Does that mean we’re perfect together?
3. They are happy as friends. Just because two people are happy as friends doesn’t mean they can make it work with a long term relationship.
You’re using all the reasons for why they are great friends for why should be together. There is a line between friend and boy/girlfriend. Rachel and Joey were never able to cross that line comfortably. Rachel was always uncomfortable when Joey tried to put the moves on her (pushing his hand away, or Joey never being able to get her bra undone) Also, Joey’s feelings seemed to come out of nowhere and they died really quickly. It was almost like he just had a crush on her. They made their relationship so awkward on purpose. So the audience would know that they didn’t belong together. They were too good of friends to be romantically involved.
Katie–Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You make some solid points about Ross and Rachel. It’s been a while since I watched the first few seasons of Friends, so I would need to go back and verify the reasons (other than hotness) that Ross likes Rachel. Can you give some examples?
I completely agree that Rachel evolved quite a bit over the course of the show. Joey did too, but perhaps not as much.
I see what you’re saying about complementing people. I think I better explained this in the comment just above yours. It’s all about conversation.
Thanks for your thoughts! I like that people are passionate about this topic.
I think this is. Totally wrong,I understand that we as viewers are supposeD to want ross and rachel together because that’s how the show was. Written but there is much more to it than that. As we all know ross has been in love with rchel for an extremley long time and.when chndler convinces him to let it go that’s when rachel finds out about how ross feels. Rachel was currentley dating a man when she finds out and when she goes on a date all she can see is ross in her head. She thinks to herself ‘I always choose the wrong guy to be with ross is kind and caring and. He’s been here all this time’ this is when she feels love for ross. From this point on rachel is very unhappy seeing ross with julie it makes her want ross even more she can’t believe what she’s missed out on. Ross later finds out about rachels feelings and eventually breaks up with julie rachel and ross end up being together and are happily together for the whole 2nd series+most of the 3rd! So they’re relationship was very good for a long time and if I remwmber rightly there reltionship only breaks down because of rachels job+ross’s job. From this point on they have other alous of each other relationships and kind of take it in turns to be je(another point showing they never truly stop loving each other). As for how ross supposedly treats rachel bad when she’s. Had the baby if you remembEr correctly rachel is the one that starts dating first and she explains to ross she wants to move on therefore ross trys to move on too,rachel gets upset and jealous which is kind of her own fault as she suggested moving on. But despite all that they’ve been through they end up confessing that they’ve always loved eachother and they want to be together forever;) this I think shows they are perfect for each other ever herd the saying opposites attract. If joey was meant to be with rachel then surley they would have been comfortable acting like a couple but they wernt they found it awkward unlike when rachel broke the line of friendship with ross and monica did with chandler;). The thing that always gets me is why didn’t joey+pheobe. Get together?!
A fair point, Samantha. Why didn’t Joey and Phoebe get together? I could see that working.
I really need to go back and watch the early seasons when Ross and Rachel were together. I really don’t remember many episodes when they were happily dating with no huge drama between them, but it’s been so long since I’ve watched them that I’m sure it’s possible.
maybe you could re watch the early seasons and you could the remake a conclusion about who you think she should end up with;)
Ross + Rachel = meant to be. Even when they broke up in season 3 I knew they would be endgame. It didn’t matter who they dated in between, I was confident that in the end, they’d come back to each other. Which they did
Joey + Rachel were just awkward together. I knew right away that it wasn’t going to last. I felt like the writers were just throwing in an awkward fling between them for pure drama. And how can you be so sure they’d be happy together in the long-run? They were only together for a bit. Rachel would eventually have gotten tired of him. Not to mention that Joey, despite being good-hearted, was too dumb to make a serious relationship with Rachel work.
This is such a good summary about it all,well said
Sure, the writers set up Rachel and Ross to be together from the beginning. That doesn’t mean they’d be good for each other in real life. Based on the characters the writers created–not plot contrivances like Joey fumbling with Rachel’s bra (does anyone believe that would happen?!)–Joey and Rachel are considerably more compatible. I’m open to other perspectives, however. Perhaps you can share 3 concrete examples of how Ross and Rachel would be highly compatible in real life based on their characters in Friends.
Real life? Ross and Rachel’s real life was the show. Plot contrivances were a part of their real life. It’s not about whether it would happen in real life or not. It was the message behind it that mattered = Rachel and Joey were good friends, but it felt awkward for them to take it further. How can they be compatible when Joey is too dumb? And made Rachel dumber? They were good as friends…but as partners? It was laughable.
Ross and Rachel would end up together in “real life” – as you say – for many reasons.
1) they have a lot of history. You can not ignore that. It may be the biggest reason. They share their past, and it could make the biggest difference.
2) they both acted immature many times, but at the end of the day, their love for each other shone through
3) they compliment each other well
4) they loved each other despite their clashing flaws. They loved each other despite the fights they had. They accepted each other for who they were.
5) Rachel understood Ross like no other woman did, though she did not always like it. And vise versa.
6) they were such imperfect individuals that together they were perfect
7) chemistry
8) believe it or not, sharing a child brings many couples together/closer
And I would just like to add, just because we say Rachel + Joey were bad together does not necessarily mean Rachel + Ross were amazing together. It simply means that Ross was better for Rachel than Joey was for Rachel.
Rachel and Joey looked and sounded way too cheerful and fake, which was not “realistic”. Joey did not have the brains to keep Rachel happy in the long run. Ross and Rachel ‘s story in general was much more realistic.
At the end of the day, why does it matter what would have happened in “real life”. The fact of it is, Friends was just a show (to most of us) and reality to the characters, and it is therefore the most important world, and in that world, Ross and Rachel ended up together.
Thanks for sharing this list, Zee. I think we view compatible/healthy relationships in different ways, but that’s okay.
Your line about Gunther was awesome, though.
Also, I believe it’s not even about Ross or Joey. Rachel was always the problem. She should have ended up with Gunther or something.
I would have preferred if Joey and Rachel ended up together.
As much as I loved Ross, he didn’t respect Rachel much as a person. He had a crush on her from the beginning, but did he ever say why? Rachel was a spoilt brat in the beginning. He only like how attractive she was.
Joey kew her for ages, but its season 7/8 when he begins to have feelings for her. They develop after he’s known her for years and she’s matured up a little bit.
Another thing is, Rachel matured Joey as a person, (not in the relationship but as in the friendship when they were roommates), he was willing to change for her. If you see their friendship as well, they shared stuff together, she made him read her favourite novel and vice versa, he taught how to curse in italian, they watched movies together. If the writers would have develped their relationship, even f it started then, many fans would have enjoyed it.
Whilst, you never saw Ross and Rachel making the little things count. They just fought.
And usually I’m all for a love/hate relationship and how ppisites attract, but sometimes it feels the writers forced Rachel to go for Ross.
Ross and Joey were oth put in a position where they didnt want Rachel to leave. Ross when Rachel wanted to go to Paris. Stopping her at the last minute. Whining to OTHER people about it rather than confronting Rachel. Joey on the other hand, when he didnt want her to leave his apartment, he told her straight away (albeit it twisted words) and then gave her a reason not to go, and bought a baby crib.
Also with Rachel’s baby, you saw how Joey gave Emma his penguin toy, for a while, he took care of the baby with Racel (assumed as he was the room mate), it wasnt even his baby.This shows how mature he is. Even though Ross was the dad, we didnt see many moment with him and Emma when Rachel stayed with Joey.
Jessica–This is brilliant! I love all the specific examples you gave that support Joey + Rachel. Very well said.
Also,Pheobe and Rachel also talked once about Joey be the hottest. (Pheobe was single at that moment). If i was in a relationship, or was truly in love with Ross throughout the whole series, I wouldnt call my best friend hotter than my boyfriend
Im not sure, but I think it was Rachel (or maybe Chandler), but once Joey ran and starting talking jibberish and Rachel understood everything and all the others were confused. and she just said “I understand Joey”
So she understood Joey like no other woman
I purposely googled “rachel joey friends” just hoping I will run onto someone who agrees with me on this
Personally I HATED Ross Rachel pairing, I felt like it was so forced and the two of them as characters didn’t fit at all, two different and completely incompatible people. At the beginning it was tolerable (though annoying) but after he cheated on her (or “they were on a break”), and that lamest scene ever where they were breaking up for hours, I was honestly with all of my heart hoping that we saw the last of them as a couple.
Joey Rachel pairing on the other hand I loved. Those two characters obviously had a lot in common, got close while living together, were more physically attracted to each other than not, and then their friendship eventually started evolving. I saw no reason for why they wouldn’t work out as a couple, except for writers coming up with a lame excuse – how is it even possible that two people make out several times but then suddenly figure out that they don’t want to/can’t have sex?
Ok, even if the reason for their break up was “we’re too good friends to be able to be together”, W H Y did she suddenly have to get back together with Ross at the end of season 10?! *puke*
Basically I just don’t understand why did the writers feel the need to ruin otherwise an awesome show like that for me?
Well said, Riley. It’s too bad the show was at the whim of the writers. Does any–even those who think that Ross and Rachel should be together–believe that Joey wouldn’t want to sleep with Rachel? I certainly don’t. Even if I were best friends with Rachel, I would still want to sleep with her.
I was watching an episode when Joey confesses his feelings and Rachel doesnt feel the same way but her reaction to him nt talking to her was telling him a lie eventually so she could tal to him again. Even for a little while. When Ross and Rachel break up, she’s never had urges to talk to him r get back with him sraight away, has she?
It shows how she values her intimacy with Joey
If you watch the entire series, you see Rachel’s friendship evolve with Joey better than any of the other guys. As much asa I like Chandler, there were points you could see Chandler and Rachel were not that clse to each other, and with Ross and Rachel it was always a struggle to get along and understand if they were together or not. I love love/hate relationships but this one was too tedious. With Rachel and Joey, Rachel at first had a crush on Joey but let it go. They were close friends but their friendship strengthened when Rachel moved in with Joey. And then yousee Rachel having to the option to move back in with Pheobe but she doesnt becasue she likes staying with Joey. From this point, you see their friendship becoming stronger and thats when they beinning deeper feeling for each other. There is an episode when Rachel is hormonal and she doesnt detest the idea of having sex with Joey. She says, “I just want to do it with someone who wont take it too seriously, who’s experiencing and caring. (and hot)” and then she looks at Joey and they both shout n but come out of their bedrooms and contemplate it.
[...] from time to time. You may not be aware of it, but for a while now the blog entry I wrote about Rachel and Joey being a better match on Friends than Rachel and Ross has continued to attract commenters (93 comments, 1,000+ votes). People are [...]
Just want to say in response to the thoughts of Rachel and Joey being sexually incompatible that’s not entirely true. Rachel and Ross weren’t perfectly fine with sexual things when they first started, their flirting was awkward, their kissing was awkward, I mean Rachel laughed when Ross kissed her. Joey and Rachel can at least kiss and flirt, it was only when they tried to go any further than that then things got awkward, which is understandable. You cannot start a relationship with one of your best friends without things being a little awkward.
I think the show should have gone for the J/R scenario, or at least spent more time on a way to develop a better ending to the relationship, rather than awkwardness, maybe a few more episodes of a relationship, rather than 3. I think the R/R people have it right when they say the J/R relationship was just another thing to stand in the way of R/R but I also think that a LOT of people fell in love with J/R and that even though they were great friends, they could have been the perfect couple, they were just cute together. R/R together was wrong, I’ve never thought they matched and when they first got paired up at the beginning, to tell you the truth I thought it was just a way for the show to say that Rachel was maturing because she went out with someone she wouldn’t usually go for, was kind of annoyed when it went on for longer than that.