Who Should Rachel Have Ended Up With: Ross or Joey?

If you like this entry, feel free to check out my Kickstarter campaign for a board game I invented called Viticulture. If enough people pledge, I might be able to be convinced that Ross and Rachel are right for each other. 🙂

During yesterday’s sanction on avid commentors, I got more comments off the blog about Ross vs. Joey than on the blog! So I’ve decided to make it the topic of today’s post. For the sake of this argument, please suspend reality and assume that Friends is really, really important.

I’d also ask that you give Joey a chance. Sure, the show was written to emotionally drive us towards (spoiler alert!) the inevitable Ross and Rachel reunion, but does that make it right? Or were we falsely manipulated?

I would contend that we were. The writers of the show made us feel like Ross and Rachel should be together thanks to a string of dramatic moments, breakups and reunions. But really, let’s look at what’s behind those moments:

  1. Ross pines for Rachel. Early on, Ross pines for Rachel a lot. Rachel is out of his league. So naturally, as viewers we root for the underdog. But just because someone pines for someone else doesn’t mean that they deserve them. That’s why stalkers are weird.
  2. Rachel chooses Ross (early on) for no reason other than the fact that he likes her. There’s a beautiful moment on Friends when Rachel watches a  video from high school prom night when Ross, on a moment’s notice, gets dressed to be Rachel’s date because hers has ditched her. The date shows up at the last minute, Rachel prances away, and Ross looks dejected. Back in real time, Rachel sees the gesture and kisses Ross. It’s awesome. But think about it–did Rachel develop feelings for Ross at that moment? Before that she never batted an eye at him. Suddenly she sees that he cares, and so she likes him. It’s human nature to like those who like us. But real relationships go way deeper than that.
  3. Ross chooses Rachel for no other reason than she’s hot. It’s unfortunate, but it’s true. Show me the qualities that Ross sees in Rachel. Ross, although a bit particular, is good at heart. He cares about the people around him. He sacrifices for them. He’s also extremely intelligent. Rachel, on the other hand, is extremely self-centered, selfish, and kind of a doof (that’s a new word meaning “dumb goof”). She grows up a bit, especially when she has the baby, but what does Ross see in Rachel? Why doesn’t he see beyond the hotness to her selfishness? Quite frankly, she doesn’t deserve him. 
  4. They’re never happy together. This is a biggie, and one that the show cleverly manuvers around. You see, as viewers we like drama. Until Jim and Pam came along, we didn’t know that we could be so happy watching a couple simply be…happy. There is not a single episode of Friends when Ross and Rachel are together that they are not fighting or lying to one another. And more often than not, they’re breaking up, trying to get back together, or admitting they have feelings but doing nothing about it yet. If Ross and Rachel are meant to be, shouldn’t they have sustained something real and wonderful for at least a few episodes?

I simply don’t see compelling evidence that Ross and Rachel were “meant to be.” Now for the second part of my argument: Why Rachel and Joey are a much better pair.

  1. Their personalities are a much better fit. Using my word from above, they’re both kind of doofs. Rachel is a waitress for several seasons; Joey is a struggling actor. Rachel eventually (and somehow miraculously–what, exactly, are her qualifications) gets a grown-up job at Ralph Lauren, and Joey eventually becomes a marginally successful actor. They evolve. But at heart they’re still doofs, and we love them for it. Also, they are both quite confident sexually (at least we are told). Strictly in terms of who they are, they make a great couple.
  2. Joey is good for Rachel; Rachel is good for Joey. At a certain point, Rachel has matured past Joey’s man-boy lifestyle, so she has something to teach Joey about love, relationships, and personal development. Joey, in turn, adds levity, humor, and compassion to Rachel’s sharp, selfish persona. They have real ways that they can grow with and challenge each other.
  3. They are happy together. Rachel and Ross just fought all the time. Rachel and Joey actually get along! Why is this so overlooked?! Joey even proposes to Rachel at some point (or he gets ready to propose? I can’t remember) simply so she can have someone by her side to raise the baby.

Granted, I’ll contend that after writing about Ross and Rachel for 10 seasons, the writers had to let Ross and Rachel end up together. But I’m saying that they shouldn’t have spoonfed that love story when there was a much better one to be told. If Rachel and Joey were real people, they would unquestionably be the better fit.

What do you think? Obviously I’m open to your thoughts. And if you just want to cast a vote and walk away, please do so in the poll below.


125 Responses to “Who Should Rachel Have Ended Up With: Ross or Joey?”

  1. T-Mac says:

    You make a good case. I’ll cast a vote for Joey. When you stop to consider the points above, Ross really isn’t very different from Gunther–he just had access to Rachel outside of a coffee shop.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Trev–Don’t you have a theory that Gunther is the one for Rachel? This might be the time to describe that theory.

      • Katty says:

        While Rachel is carrying his child, Ross carelessly parades girlfriends past her and everyone else. He brings them to the their apartment. He neglects her needs.

        Ross is childish–the most self-centered and least self-aware of all the characters.

        Joey is so much more loving, giving, fun, handsome, and romantic (I’d call him “Mrs. Katty.”)

        • Jamey Stegmaier says:

          Sounds like someone has a bit of a crush on Joey. 🙂

          I had forgotten about how Ross treated Rachel when she was pregnant. Was that just one episode or throughout the pregnancy? That doesn’t sound very respectful.

  2. Ali says:

    Oh how wholeheartedly I disagree… I’m actually going to start with your points about Joey:

    1. They are a relatively good match, but the same reasoning could be applied to the success of their friendship. Just because they get along well doesn’t mean that a dating relationship would be good for them. Especially since, for two very sexually confident people, they aren’t sexually compatible! The reason that they break up in the end (and yes, this is likely a plot contrivance to get Ross and Rachel together, but it’s still valid!) is that Rachel keeps slapping Joey when he makes a move on her, and Joey can’t even get her bra off… Not a winning day for either of them.
    2. Boy, you don’t like Rachel very much, do you? I would consider Rachel to be one of the least selfish Friends by the end of the show. She attempts to help her sisters repeatedly (which is an extraordinarily difficult feat), she throws parties for Phoebe and Monica when they are getting married (even though she’s like… 60 percent happy for them and only 40 percent jealous) and she is an amazing maid of honor to Monica (the REAL sharp, selfish Friend). I don’t think that much of Joey’s growth can be attributed to Rachel, except for in the context of being his roommate. They don’t gain much in the transition from friends to a romantic relationship. Plus, this might just be me, but I can’t stand when Matt LeBlanc attempts to act emotional… Skip ahead to about 1:20 and you’ll see what I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiqX_-pA7IE.
    3. They aren’t sexually compatible (as I said above) and Joey actually proposes to Rachel twice, but I don’t think it’s quite the boon to your case that you think it is. The first time, he proposes to Phoebe because he thinks she’s pregnant, and then when he finds out it’s Rachel, he gives her the exact same speech (and hasn’t even gotten the ring back from Phoebe!). The second time, he finds the ring that Ross’s mom had given him, drops it and then holds it up. Rachel assumes he’s proposing (a mistake we’ve all made, I’m sure) and says yes because she’s still post-partum and hormonal. Joey is too immature to just say “Oh no, I found this, my b.” and likewise too immature to tell either Ross or Rachel what really happened until confronted with the truth hours later.

    Whew. I have more to say but my fingers are starting to cramp, so I’ll see what other people think before continuing my rant =).

    • Ali says:

      Ok I also can’t overlook the glaring errors in your second Ross point. While that’s how their relationship started, it’s not why Rachel starts to like him. There’s been quite a bit of romantic foible leading up to that point, and the video is the plot point that makes all of that a moo point (oh Joey). Before that, Rachel had come to the conclusion (yes, after finding out that Ross liked her) that she wanted to give him a shot. Having known someone for a good portion of your life, you may need a shock like finding out that they have feelings for you to reconsider them as an option. Once she does, he’s dating Julie and she waits and pines for him for a good length of time. Her feelings may have been spurred by finding out that he liked her, but the fact that they lasted even when he had clearly found someone else means that it wasn’t just an easy date. Saying that Rachel develops feelings for him “in that moment” completely overlooks that she had already been trying to date him for most of a season.

      • Jamey Stegmaier says:

        Ali–Oo, this is getting good. And it’s a healthy reminder to me that some people know WAY more about Friends than I do. It honestly has been a while since I’ve watched the show (except for the New Year’s Episode, which I keep on my TiVo and watch several times a year).

        I’ll address your points in order:

        1. This is a good point, but it’s clearly just comedic writing. Do you REALLY believe that Rachel would slap Joey in those circumstances? Do you REALLY believe Joey can’t take of Rachel’s bra? As everyone knows, Rachel wears a standard two-hook back-clasp Victoria’s Secret size 34C. Sure, it’s reinforced for extra padding, meaning it’s a little tight in the back, but it’s nothing your average guy couldn’t take off with one hand without looking. Didn’t Joey once take off someone’s bra without even touching her?

        2. I think you hit the nail on the head with Rachel–there’s always a “but.” She might plan a party for Phoebe, but secretly she’s doing it for herself. I honestly have nothing against Rachel, and I think she grows over the course of the show, but she is pretty oblivious to those around her, indicated to me that she’s quite self-centered.

        3. Okay, I’m glad you cleared that up. I had forgotten exactly what had happened.

        4. The Rachel/Julie thing really got under my skin. I don’t think Rachel liked Ross during that time–she just wanted what she couldn’t get. If she truly wanted Ross to be happy, then she’d be nice to Julie and support Ross. Instead, she spend quite a bit of time mocking Julie behind her back. I don’t think that counts as “pining” for Ross. It is fair to correct my mistake that Rachel developed feelings for Ross in that moment. But as wonderful as that moment feels, there’s still something off about it. It’s like she’s just rewarded Ross for something. Ross did this wonderful thing and cared (cares) for her, and she rewards him with herself. It goes to show you how highly Rachel thinks of herself.

        • Ali says:

          This is one pop quiz that I was very well prepared for. I feel like I should apologize for the level of detail- I wish I could say that I didn’t know it off the top of my head, but that would unfortunately be a lie… Also, I still vote that you learn “The Routine”

          1. If we’re going to remove all of the shenanigans that occur just for the sake of humor there would be no show!! It’s over the top, but it’s there to make the point that they are better off as friends. It might be tough to believe, but I say at its most basic, their sexual incompatibility stands as a valid point.

          4. I agree that jealousy isn’t any better motivation for a relationship than liking someone who likes you (significantly worse actually), but I think that the changing accusation shows that there is at least depth to her feelings. As a girl I can say that the bickering behind Julie’s back is unfortunately fairly accurate. Nothing brings out the catty in a girl like watching someone you like date someone else. Being happy for a friend takes time, and there is some hurt to work through before that point. Did she do it maturely? Not in the slightest. Could I see it happening in real life? You bet. Finally, at that payoff moment when Rachel kisses Ross, he had made the list of her flaws (which everyone MAJORLY overreacted about) and this was the moment she forgave him. That was actually a well-scripted resolution, because the heart of their argument was that he had made a list of surface reasons not to be with her, and this reminded her that the “Not Rachem” in Julie’s con list actually meant something.

          I think that our disagreement may actually be stemming from my total willingness to drink the Friends Kool Aid, and your insistence upon thinking for yourself ;-). While some of the plotlines and contrivances are tough to swallow, I think having watched the show from a young age (8?) makes me a little more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and go ahead and buy what they’re trying to sell me.

          • Jamey Stegmaier says:

            1. Hmmm…so you truly believe that Rachel and Joey would be sexually incompatible in real life? You’re under oath here, Ali. Blog oath.

            4. Oh sure, I’m not saying her cattyness isn’t realistic. But it doesn’t reflect well on her. It’s simply a classic case of spoiled pretty girl wants what she can’t have.

            Tell me this: Why does Ross love Rachel? Give me 5 good reasons, if you don’t mind.

            • Ali says:

              Oh boy. You’re asking me to define why people love each other?! If I manage that I should be making far more than an intern’s salary.

              1. He’s attracted to her. It’s shallow but it’s definitely important.

              2. She’s a caring individual. Sure, she was a spoiled daddy’s girl, but you can’t ignore the fact that she was best friends with Monica even when she was fat (among other examples of her caring).

              3. She works to change her life. She finds something that she’s passionate about and she goes after it. The chances of her succeeding in the real world are admittedly low, but at least she tried!

              4. She has self-respect. She didn’t take him back when he cheated on her, which shows integrity, confidence and maturity beyond that of a selfish daddy’s girl.

              5. She’s funny. Even in the context of the show, she has a good sense of humor and can tease her friends as well as take a joke.

              Also, since I’m under blog oath I don’t want to be frivolous, but anything is possible! I don’t know them personally, so maybe the chemistry just isn’t there. But if necessary, I will concede that it seems highly unlikely.

    • Sammy says:

      Ali, your comments/points, by far, make the most sense of any on this post. THANK YOU. *applauds*

  3. Neha says:

    I started writing this after I read your #1 point about Rachel being out of Ross’ league, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, before I read your #3. I always thought Rachel was the least likeable character on the show, and never understood her popularity. She is indeed, as you say, selfish as well as egotistical and at times, just mean. Did anyone else notice all the digs she took at Chandler, who was maybe the most likeable character on the show? Her lack of redeeming qualities, other than her looks, makes me think that in fact, Ross was out of her league, not the other way around.

    But, of the three male characters, I found Ross to be the most annoying, thus, I think he fits better with Rachel than Joey. In the later seasons, Ross kind of starts to get meaner and vain as well, which makes me think he is better suited for Rachel (albeit they would be an unhappy bickering couple). Joey on the other hand, is sweet and kind-hearted- too good for Rachel. So in the end, I think Rachel ended up with the right guy.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Neha–Thanks for your thoughts. I think I should revise the “out of his league” to specifically reference looks. I think Rachel is much better looking than Ross. In other ways, as I described above (including Rachel’s pettiness), Ross is out of Rachel’s league.

      That said, you have some good points about Ross becoming meaner and more vain later in the show. That is true. But as that happens, I think Joey becomes the better option. Joey is almost always good hearted (except when it comes to comical fights with Chandler) and I truly think he would make Rachel a better person. Whereas Ross and Rachel will end up being a mean, vain, bickering old couple. Do you really want that for them? 🙂

  4. T-Mac says:

    Another anti-Ross point. Ross is a deadbeat dad. Think very carefully about how often Ross mentions visiting his first child (Ben), has him over for Dad time, or mentions paying child support. Quite frankly, it wasn’t often enough.

    Joey, on the other hand, is a true caretaker. He genuinely loves the chick and the duck (unlike Ross, who I’m assuming out of absolutely thin air actually resents Ben because he’s a reminder of his failed relationship with Carol), and, in fact, gets Monica and Chandler a chick & duck of their own (that he ends up with, in true caretaker fashion).

    Whereas Ross is no better than those drug addict parents who sell their children for 2 crack rocks, a half-eaten bologna sandwich, and a pocketful of shame, Joey is a model of paternal care.

    (I’m making all of this up, but it sounded worthwhile in my head.)

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      That’s a great point about Ross being a deadbeat dad–he hardly ever sees Ben! I missed the episode where Ross sells Ben for crack, but it seems like the type of thing he would do. Joey is a much better caretaker. I think Joey and Rachel would have better old love than Ross and Rachel, and better chemistry in the early goings as well (which the writers somehow couldn’t bring themselves to let happen).

  5. Tracy says:

    Like Ali, I know my sh&t when it comes to Friends. Not sure if that’s sad or not, but I digress…

    When they first put Joey and Rachel together, I thought I liked it. But then it just got weird. Rachel isn’t out of Ross’s league; she’s grossly out of Joey’s. Sure, she waitressed at the coffee shop for a season or two, but she also found that menial job at Bloomingdale’s, which led to a better job at Ralph Lauren. What’s my point? Rachel’s character evolved throughout the 10 seasons, and Joey really didn’t. Actually, I think he got dumber and more child-like throughout. If you look back to the first season, he isn’t nearly as feeble as he ends up being (hence the accidental proposal to Rachel that should have been nipped in the bud immediately). Is Joey marriage/family material? Umm, no. He’s good comedy, but that’s about it. Rachel went from a spoiled, dependent daddy’s girl princess to a successful, career-driven single mother. (Well, not really, since she ends up with Ross in the end.) She does have her selfish moments, but overall, I think she’s a great character, and really, one of the most likeable ones on the show. Besides Chandler. Who doesn’t love Chandler?

    Ross and Rachel belong together. As Phoebe said in the infamous prom episode–“He’s her lobster.” He’s been in love with her since high school, but she doesn’t realize she’s in love with him until she sees him “that way.” Ali’s right–she pined over Ross for a good part of the 2nd season while he was with Julie. Then he broke up with Julie, and they did the whole cat and mouse thing until they finally ended up together. If anything, their on-again, off-again status over the years shows they had true love for each other, but the timing was never really right until it WAS right. I thought it was a great way to end the show.

    Side note: Does anyone else think Monica got annoyingly screechy the last season? I could have done with less of her.

    Okay, I’ve made myself look pathetic enough for one day. 🙂

    ~Tracy

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Tracy–Thanks for your comment. I’ve always been impressed with your knowledge of Friends.

      You have a good point about Joey not evolving all that much. That’s fair. I think he matures a little bit, but a lot of his comedy still comes from him being a doof (yeah, I’m sticking with that word).

      I’m not with you on the timing argument, though. The Office tried that for a while, but in the end Jim and Pam made a choice to be together, and they stuck with it. And they still have plenty of chemistry without doing the on-again/off-again thing. It is possible. If Ross and Rachel were truly each others’ lobsters, they would have chosen to be together. And we, as the audience, would have supported that choice in the same way that we supported Chandler and Monica.

    • Michael says:

      First, Joey is a family guy. For example, he’s very protective of his sisters. He also cares for his mom’s and dad’s happiness. Throughout the series, here are the characteristics that Joey has that makes him a marriage/family material: sweet, caring, loyal, strict sometimes, and ALWAYS do the right thing. I don’t know how could you say Joey is not marriage/family material. Second, I think Pheobe was right about the lobster story, but she was wrong about which lobster belongs to Rachel. And finally, being on and off like Ross and Rachel is not mainly because of the timing, but because their characteristics do not fit together. I hope you can see through that Ross ends up with Rachel is a pathetic, one-sided love (Ross), and Rachel just likes him back because she pities the loser, who does not deserve to be with her.

  6. Molly says:

    Perhaps the fact that Ross and Rachel’s relationship is a bit imperfect is the EXACT reason they are perfect for each other. Plus Ross is a paleontologist (really into dinosaurs) making him the total package.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Molly–I considered that point, the whole idea that imperfection is good and opposites attract. But wouldn’t Ross be more intellectually stimulated and satisfied with someone who is as curious about the world as he is?

      • Molly says:

        I guess that depends on how you define “intelligence”…. What about the fact that despite obvious “book smarts” – Ross is ridiculously socially awkward?! I think Rachel’s common sense and superior people skills (intelligence not taught in schools) are way more valuable in life and when building a successful relationship. Plus she is better looking.

  7. Red says:

    For the sorority girl to end up with the kind-hearted and struggling hot guy is stereotypically where I would have put them in the real world. But I think that Ross and Rachel are the ideal of opposites attracting.. They fulfill the flaws in the other.
    I think that Joey’s dim-witted but well-intentioned ineptitude is harder to overcome for Rachel than Ross’s idealistic tendencies. And I think Ross likes Rachel because she helps him feel normal. You can’t fix stupid, but you may warm cold.

  8. Jamey Stegmaier says:

    Ali–Wow, well done! I honestly didn’t think it was possible, but you convinced me that there are valid reasons for Ross to love Rachel. I’m a believer. (Although I’d still pick Joey for her.) 😉

    • Ali says:

      Yay! I’m glad to agree to disagree. Sorry again for being lengthy, only one person has ever accused me of being succinct ;).

  9. Adrienne says:

    Obviously I am completely in the Ross/Rachel camp, but I just have to say this:

    I really believe that if Rachel and Joey had gotten together and somehow made it last to the end, you would be saying that it was completely unrealistic that they could make it work. Joey hasn’t had a serious girlfriend, despite his “relationships” with the hundreds of other girls he dated, so why on earth would he be able to change for Rachel? I just don’t see that happening.

    I think this is a real life example of wanting something you can’t have, Jamey.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Adrienne–You touch upon a common rom com trope–that the “playboy” can find the right woman and immediately settle down with her. I think you’re right. That would have been unrealistic. But I’d compare it to Barney and Robin on How I Met Your Mother. Barney truly loves Robin, and a big part of that is their sex life–Barney is really excited by the idea of being with Robin in that way, so he’s no longer interested in filling that void with other women. For some reason that makes sense to me, just like Joey and Rachel.

      Well played with that last line. Well played. We’ll see what the votes say in the end. 🙂

      • Tegan says:

        I compare Joey and Rachel to Barney and Robin too! I also see Ross and Rachel as the Ted and Robin… they tried at the beginning but they realized they were too different and didn’t suit each other. I think Ross and Rachel never realized this though. Whereas I think with Barney and Robin… their characters compliment each other a lot more. They’re best friends, but they also bring out the best in each other. Both are kind of broken people but accept and love each other for their flaws.

        My problem with Ross and Rachel as a couple is the seriousness and maturity gap. My favorite example to use is from The One in Barbados Part I, where Ross is giving his speech and both Joey and Rachel giggle at ‘homo erectus.’ Ross rolls his eyes. See, I love that Rachel and Joey can act like such kids together! But at the same time there’s the sexual tension like in The One With Rachel’s Dream, and the underlying feelings.

        Rachel also helps Joey grow as a person. She’s always there for him when he needs her, and his character only really started to mature when he realized he was in love with her. Ross and Rachel have never made me go ‘Awwww,’ like I did when Joey held Rachel during the scary movie, or like when he was trying to use ‘method acting’ and was talking about all the times he wanted to grab her and kiss her, or like when he’s trying to convince himself he doesn’t have feelings for her while eating cereal and as soon as she walks out and says “Morning, sweetie,” his inner voice goes “I love you.”

        And obviously he’s there for her when he’s willing to marry her both when he finds out she’s pregnant and when she has the baby. Joey is a generally loving, caring person, even though he can be misguided at times.

        And these are the reasons why I think Rachel should have ended up with Joey and Ross should have ended up with Charlie. 🙂

        • Jamey Stegmaier says:

          Tegan! I don’t know where you came from, but I’m glad you came out of nowhere to support my Rachel/Joey theory. Those are fantastic supporting examples for why Rachel and Joey belong together AND why Ross and Rachel are not meant for each other.

          Thank you, Tegan. That was awesome.

          • Tegan says:

            No problemo! 😀 I came from Googling “Rachel should have ended up with Joey” and clicking on the first link that came up LMAO. xD

            Glad you approve! 🙂

            • Jamey Stegmaier says:

              Ha ha…well I’m glad that this important issue was one your mind. 🙂 Feel free to stick around for some of the other important issues discussed on this blog, such as today’s poll on cuteness.

              • Jen says:

                Hey me too! I think that Joey and Rachel were much cuter together than Ross and Rachel. At the very base level, Ross has some serious commitment issues ie. Multiple marriages, sleeping with someone when you just broke up or took a break (not only the Ross and Rachel break thing but before when he found out Carol was lesbian, he and Phoebe were about to go at it). Besides how do you as a woman really forget that at anytime you have a break, he’ll go out and cheat on you. Joey seems like an overall nicer and more honest guy. Rachel and Joey had great chemistry. Wish they would’ve been given more of a shot.

        • Lisa says:

          Barney/Robin are actually more like Ross/Rachel, and Ted/Robin are more like Joey/Rachel; the difference being Ted is more the “Ross” character and Barney is more the “Joey” (although, I would say Barney is actually more like Chandler. The Joey in the HIMYM world is Marshall).

          Ted and Robin are friends who get on well, tried a relationship, it didn’t work, went back to being friends. Barney/Robin, like Ross/Rachel, have an on/off-agin, sometimes at each other’s throats, relationship, spanning the majority of the series. Like with Ross/Rachel, you just know that Barney/Robin are meant to be and going to end up together.

          The point you made about the maturity gap; I disagree, because in those episodes when Rachel had a crush on Joey, they dumbed her character down to Joey’s level. So in actual fact, when you say there’s a maturity gap between Ross and Rachel, there’s also a maturity gap between Joey and Rachel. Rachel grew as a person over the course of the show, Joey did the reverse. He got less mature and Rachel grew past that, thus, when it would come down to it, a relationship between them wouldn’t work for the same reason you think the Ross/Rachel relationship didn’t work.

  10. Jamey Stegmaier says:

    Jen–Thanks for your comment. I had completely forgotten about Ross’s close call with Phoebe. Although I think Joey had some commitment issues too, I think they were very different than Ross’s. I, too, wish that Friends had given Joey and Rachel a better chance.

  11. Ben says:

    Woah! there are a lot of people here having their memory play tricks with them. First of all Joey never proposed or planned to do so to Rachel. The first time was when he suspected that someone was pregnant and as the kind-hearted great friend that he is he just stepped up to support her so that she wouldn’t end up a single mom, that’s even more obvious because he first proposed to Phoebe when he thought she was the pregnant one, and then used the exact same speech to propose to Rachel. Secondly he didn’t propose again to Rachel when her daughter was born, he just went to pick up something for her from under Ross’ jacket when the ring fell out of it’s pocket, he went down to pick it up and when Rachel saw it she just said “ok” because she assumed he was proposing and because Janice really messed with her head convincing her that Ross would just “abandon” her and the baby and go have a real family. Another thing, stop crucifying Ross for going to meet other women while Rachel was pregnant, Rachel kept doing the exact same thing until her belly started popping out so there are no saints there.

    Now about who should have ended with who. I do agree that Rachel and Joey are a much better suited couple than Rachel and Ross ever where, however I never felt sure of Rachel’s feelings for Joey just like I never felt sure of her feelings for any of her other love interests on the show (the Italian guy in the beginning and her assistant are great examples). At first her interest was just sparked by her admiration for Joey’s character, she started to fall for Dr Drake Ramoray NOT Joey. And I remember perfectly the moment she decided to make a move on him how she ignored Monica’s advice under the excuse of being drunk and just wanting to do something crazy. Very romantic. And it was just when he got together with Charlie that her interest really fired up. Similarly to how Robin in HIMYM only started to have feelings for Ted when he finally got together with another nice girl that he really liked.

    If I had to guess, then Rachel could have ended up with Gunther for all I care because she never in the show was capable of showing any true love for anyone else, but since I know how much Joey had so much in common in her and how he really loved her, I imagine she would probably mature a lot with him and learn to love and appreciate him the way he did with her.

  12. JW says:

    In complete agreement with all your points. This is what I wrote in the Fan Forum:

    I think if the writers had taken the ending of the episode, TOW Ross is Fine, and ran with it, the fans would have been fine with J/R’s relationship and here’s why:

    1. Ross was already able to accept that both he and Rachel should move on as they had not been a couple for nigh on 6 years.

    2. Joey was who RACHEL wanted (and vice versa). They did not choose each other out of desperation or as a back up but they truly fell in love. Right now, as I watch TOW the Stain on Nick@Nite, Joey was trying to convince Rachel to stay. He said, “I’m going to miss you so much. I just wish you could stay.” Awww … He could not imagine life without her.

    3. Ross himself would have wanted Rachel to be happy and Joey made her happy. He also said that, if Rachel were to end up with someone else, he couldn’t think of anyone better than Joey, his co-bff.

    Sure, some fans would still feel weird about it; I read such fan reactions all the time on GetGlue. But how many books have we read or shows/movies have we seen, where an ending was somewhat surprising or unsettling at first, but we would end up accepting it and thinking it was for the best for all involved anyway? See, that’s the way I see the J/R relationship. It was for the BEST — not only did they fall in love with each other, they already could live together so harmoniously (as evidenced by their roommate situation). The only thing that would change for them, lifestyle-wise, was that Rachel would move into Joey’s room (where Rachel would be able to offer Joey more than Phoebe had promised him if he ended up being her backup ) and Emma would have her own room in their apartment.

    The Rachel getting off the plane was such a cop-out ending and, if those fans really think about it, can they imagine the bumpy road ahead for R/R? I know I can’t … Shudder!

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      JW–Great points. You know the show very well. I read a recent interview about whether or not they’ll ever get back together for a reunion show or a movie. It would be amazing, of course, but they said no. They certainly don’t need the money.

      • JW says:

        It is true, none of them would want to adulterate the sacredness that was/is FRIENDS. They’ve always said they wanted to leave the fans with their memories of this great show rather than come back and do a sub-par get-together movie just for the sake of it. Too bad, really. A few of them have (David Schwimmer, Lisa Kudrow) haven’t really been on mainstream radar lately.

        • Jamey Stegmaier says:

          I guess my one complaint with that (not your statement, but the stance of the actors) is the assumption that the movie would be sub-par. I think there are many ways it could turn out to be a disappointment, but with the right writer, there is a slim chance it could be incredible. I wonder if some have tried to write it and came up short.

  13. Lisa says:

    This “olde question” could be argued and argued until each party is blue in the face and neither is going to agree with the other. But the main point is, she ended up with Ross, it was always going to be Ross and Joey was only another buffer in the way of Ross and Rachel getting together. 😉

    You do make some good points in favor of poor Joey, however. I think if they had tried putting Joey and Rachel together early on, as opposed to Ross and Rachel, there could have been something just as special, as what Ross and Rachel had, there but unfortunately Joey had gotten so dim-witted by season 9, that he just wasn’t compatible with anyone; even Rachel. They had to “dumb” her character down in the few episodes she and Joey tried being together, to put her on Joey’s level. And do not get me started on how awkward it was to watch Joey and Rachel try to be together. That was probably the l

  14. Lisa says:

    This “olde question” could be argued and argued until each party is blue in the face and neither is going to agree with the other. But the main point is, she ended up with Ross, it was always going to be Ross and Joey was only another buffer in the way of Ross and Rachel getting together. 😉

    You do make some good points in favor of poor Joey, however. I think if they had tried putting Joey and Rachel together early on, as opposed to Ross and Rachel, there could have been something just as special, as what Ross and Rachel had, there but unfortunately, Joey had gotten so dim-witted by season 9, that he just wasn’t compatible with anyone; even Rachel. They had to “dumb” her character down in the few episodes she and Joey tried being together, to put her on Joey’s level. And do not get me started on how awkward it was to watch the two of them try to be together. I cringe just thinking about it! That was probably the lowest point in the show’s entire run.

    Rachel would have been better off in Paris than ever being considered ending up with Joey!

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      This is awesome that the post ended up on fanforum.com! Not sure how that happened, but very cool.

      Lisa, you’re totally right that we can’t change Joey, Ross, and Rachel’s fates–they’ve been decided. But it’s fun to discuss anyway. 🙂

      I should mention–in reference to Joey’s dumbness–that Rachel is quite the airhead in the first few seasons herself. She grows into herself and finds niches in which she excels, but early on in those waitressing, short-skirted years, I think she probably shared the same IQ with Joey.

      • Lisa says:

        But see, you just hit the nail on the head with the “dumbness”. Perhaps, in the beginning, Joey and Rachel’s intelligence was on the same level. Although, I still think that’s stretching it, because Joey has always been significantly “dumber” than the rest-even in the first season when he could be quite witty. But like you said, Rachel grows. Her character matures. Joey, if anything, does the reverse; he gets dumber. So come season 9, when Rachel develops her crush on Joey, the idea of the two of them making a go of it as a couple, makes next to no sense; on Rachel’s part, because she has grown past Joey.

        I have always felt, that the feelings she developed for Joey, after her dream, weren’t believable. Perhaps this is partly on Jennifer, because it’s no secret that she (and Matt) didn’t feel right and felt uncomfortable about the Joey and Rachel situation. So the awkward feeling being put across, and the lack of chemistry between them during those episodes, could be coming from that. But even with that aside, It’s still hard to believe.

        • Jamey Stegmaier says:

          That’s a fair point about the dumbness. I don’t think Rachel gets all that much smarter (not even close to Ross), but she certainly gets more savvy.

          Great point about the dream. I think some might say that the dream helped her realize that she had feelings rather than caused them, but it’s debatable.

  15. Maria says:

    Ross duh , i’m sorry but what you wrote about Ross and Rachel is so no true . Ross was in love with her since he was 15 ,he loved her all along and she didn’t start a relationship with him because of the prom video. All the episodes before this showed us that she was so jealous about Julie and she had admited to Monica that she used to think Ross as her best friend but for the moment she learnt about his feelings she dreamt of him while she was on a date , she had a fantasy of him kissing her she fell in love with him and in the prom video she realized how much Ross loved her and how much she loved him. When they were together they were the happier they could be , yes they had their fights (something that made their relationship unique) but they were crazy for each other and we can see that through out the whole series .
    With Joey they were not even a couple and the most obvious reason was that Rachel was not in love with him(she thought that she liked him ,something that dissapeared), she couldn’t even sleep with him because she felt nothing but friendship(and to tell the truth she was still in love with Ross).With Joey they were ”let’s call them couple” for only 3 episodes and it was the most pointless and akward thing , they made Joey less silly and Rachel non Rachel just because they wanted to put another obstacle between R’n’R .
    Ross and Rachel were ,are and will be always perfect for each other and they didn’t fit with anybody else . Meant to be couple , they loved each other so extremely much.
    And that’s the truth about the J/R thing she was not in love with him , she didn’t felt right to be with him .
    Ross & Rachel had storylines in all the ten seasons and moments that showed us why they ended up together.!

  16. Daniel says:

    “They are happy together.” You cant really judge that, since they were together for about a week, yes they were good friends and they were happy as that, but things can get complicated when you’re more than that.

    Ross & Rachel had plenty of times that they were happy together, for entire episodes. Every couple has their fights but it shows you care. I believe Ross liked Rachel for more than just her looks, maybe at first during their College days, but they were around each other alot, and when you’re that close you can develop real feelings. I also doubt that Rachel would go out with him simply because he liked her. Lets not forget those months that Rachel thrived for Ross when he was with Julie, all she could think about was him. She could of even liked him before he got with Julie, you can like someone for so long yet never realize it until something hits you.

    On comparing Joey & Rachel’s personality’s of both being a bit dumb, they don’t attract, opposites attract, hence why Rachel’s dumbness and Ross’s Intelligentness (Not a word, I know!) were a good pairing.

    I think Rachel was better suited for Ross, because Joey practically slept with a different Girl everyday, in reality would you honestly want to start a life up with a guy who sleeps with girls and never calls them back, and she knew he did that.

  17. Jamey Stegmaier says:

    I fully support the word “intelligentness.” May I also suggest “intelligentitude”?

    Maria and Daniel, you both have good points about Ross. Trust me when I say that I am moved whenever I see the iconic Ross/Rachel moments. I still support Joey/Rachel over Ross/Rachel (as stated in my blog entry), but think the arguments for Ross/Rachel are valid too.

  18. Mel says:

    I agree with almost everything in your post. Joey was so sweet to Rachel, and Emma when she was born. The writers gave him some depth and responsibility when they had him fall for Rachel (meanwhile they turned Ross into a screaming jerk who couldn’t let Rachel out of his sight), and she was happy when she lived with Joey.

    Ross and Rachel had good chemistry, but they had major trust issues that never got resolved, they stressed each other out, and I didn’t find them very likable together. Joey and Rachel had fun, they helped each other out, and I liked them together. To me, they were a much better match.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Mel–I agree with you agreeing with me. I think that’s a great reminder to everyone that whenever Ross and Rachel were together, they were fighting. Some might call that passion, but it seemed more like dysfunction and incompatibility to me.

  19. […] to my blog. This always makes me happy. Just the other day someone posted a Fan Forum link to my entry on who Rachel should have ended up with on the TV show Friends, and it re-enlivened the discussion […]

  20. rossisright says:

    I don’t think Ross and Rachel both are sane…. Though I agree that Ross shouldn’t be so jealous I feel that they were infact on a break and he did nothing wrong sleeping with chloe….

    Rachel never cared about relationship with Ross. Remember the episode ” the one with the jelly fish” where Ross was asked to bear the entire responsibility on their relationship.. that is ridiculous because both were equally responsible…. This letter is a deal killer and Ross should have never gone back to Rachel considering her ego….

    and just because only fewer episodes were shown about Ross taking care of Ben doesnt really mean he doenst care at all,,, infact there were very few episodes involving Ben.

    I think Rachel is a big manipulative s**t who goes after every guy … remember
    the interview at Ralph Lauren… putting out during the interview… the customer… her assistant… and others …. she is a s**t but not a wife material…. she complained about Ross’s jealousy but she was jealous too …
    look at the instances of barney, Emily, toys shop girl….

    Infact I should say, Ross is better than Rachel….

  21. Jeremy says:

    I completely agree that Rachel should have ended up with Joey.

    The whole “they’re sexually incompatible” argument should NOT be cited as a legitimate reason for them not being together as it was a plot contrivance suddenly introduced when the writers thought they had to force Ross and Rachel together. It has been used countless times on other shows (like George and Izzy on Grey’s) and it’s just a cheap and shallow cop-out.

    Ross and Rachel had chemistry in the first few seasons but they very rapidly lost it afterwards. They would have been so much better as just exes. Rachel and Joey always had mutual chemistry and it only grew as the seasons progressed. Joey would have worked so much better as a paternal figure to Emma and that would have made the series so much more interesting.

    The writers did NOT play out the romance between Joey and Rachel the way they should have (the back and forth “I have an unrequited crush” thing was tedious and very high-school) but it still could have worked for season 10 if the writers had had the balls to try something different.

  22. juliana says:

    Great text. Obviously Rachel should’ve picked Joey. They’re so more true than Ross and Rachel. And so flawless.

  23. Amanda Louise Henry says:

    I think the real question is should Joey have ended up with Dawson or Pacey. I’d like to see your take on that. 😉

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Oo, tough question. It’s particularly tough because the only episodes of Dawson’s Creek I watched were the handful or so that I was mandated to watch with a girlfriend in college. So I definitely can’t do a full analysis. Pacey grew up to work for the Fringe department and fall in love with Anna Torv, so I’m going to say that Joey should have ended up with Dawson. It’s his creek, after all.

  24. The Killer Queen says:

    To be honest, I never really liked the Ross and Rachel couple. They were not that supportive or caring both as friends and as a couple. In fact, all their relationship was is fighting and sex. Their moments of friendship were practically non-existent to me and half of the time I wonder if there were friends or a thing I call “conditional companionship” where you’re only friends with someone because that someone is friends with your friends.

    Apparently the reason why Joey and Rachel went to the dust so quickly after Season 10 (and apparently let Joey and Rachel never talk to each other again. hell, their goodbyes were even offscreen!) was because, from what I heard, the Ross and Rachel Fanatics (and trust me, there were A LOT) complaining and sending threats to the writers because they were not happy with the Joey/Rachel coupling. The writers followed their orders in order to save the ratings.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      The Killer Queen–Thanks for sharing your insight about the fans and the writers. I didn’t know that. I still blame the writers for conditioning the fans to think that Ross and Rachel were meant to be…although some blame is on the fans’ shoulders for overlooking all of the fighting and bickering between Ross and Rachel (as you described).

      I should give the writer’s some credit, though–after all, we’re still talking about Friends more than a decade after the last episode aired. 🙂

  25. Bethan says:

    Joey is sweet I love them together if their not to heather it will brake my heart I don’t think I could watch friends again so please…..

  26. Bethan says:

    Everyone here this, I’m getting bored of Rachel and Ross its the same old same old it would be more interesting if Rachel and joey were together. I’m thinking about them all the time if the don’t get married it will brake my heart. Ross can’t kiss joey can

  27. James says:

    1. Fighting is not a sign of relationship weakness. I do not want to end up with someone I never fight with. Fighting implies feelings, implies passion.
    2. Rachel is not a ‘doof.’ She’s spoiled, at the beginning, but in no way is she a doof.
    3. On Rachel no ‘deserving’ Ross… I don’t know about that. Your opinion of Rachel is unfairly low and of Ross, unfairly high. He did some dumb things. Yes, for sweet reasons, but still… He didn’t tell her they were still married! And Ross didn’t choose her because she was ‘hot.’ They really worked well together. They had excellent chemistry.
    4. Most importantly, Rachel did not start liking Ross because of the Prom video. At that point, she had had a crush on him for some time. She found out Ross liked her, and it made her consider a relationship with him, which she decided to pursue. She went to meet him at the airport with flowers, only to find him get off the plane with another woman. She spent several months pining for *him*, but when they almost clicked, Ross accidentally insulted her and hurt her feelings. The prom video happened a few episodes later, and it showed Rachel how long Ross had cared, and how often and how deeply she must have hurt his feelings before.
    5. There are SEVERAL episodes where Ross and Rachel are not lying or fighting with each other. Most of season 2, they aren’t. While I will agree that as time wore on, their relationship got more ‘sitcommy,’ with conflict thrown in for dramatic purposes, that made them on-again, off-again. This is due to writing, however, and is not the characters’ faults. I will agree it is one of the show’s biggest flaws, because they had to *contrive* events to keep the two apart.
    6. Rachel and Joey was weird. They realized it when they tried to be together. It didn’t work.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Good points! Thanks for chiming in, James.

      • James says:

        Been rewatching the second half of Friends since I last posted here. I don’t mind, I think, Joey falling for Rachel in season 8. It was at a *wildly* inappropriate time, as she was having his best friend’s baby, but the two had bonded while living together, and it’s conceivable that he would fall for her. I actually had an emotional response to his confession to her I didn’t have when I was younger. Her response was realistic–you could tell it killed her to break her friend’s heart. I actually really liked that.

        Then season 9 comes along. Rachel went through a few bouts where the writers made her character too malleable to fit situations they wanted to create. Season 9 had more narrative misfires than any other season to date, but Rachel’s character was a big one. The season started with the hugely contrived ‘keep Ross and Rachel apart’ tactic of Joey’s ‘proposal’ and Rachel’s acceptance. After Ross and Rachel had several moving, tender moments, they keep them apart again. But then when Rachel ‘falls for’ Joey after having a single dream about him, the show devolves into a middle-school drama where 33 year old characters are saying things like “Oh my God, you like Joey, don’t you?” using the word ‘like’ for its romantic connotations which I haven’t heard since I was a teenager. I don’t believe a single moment of their relationship, or her ‘pining’ for Joey. They just don’t have the ‘it’ factor, the incalculable chemistry that is all-important in romance. Even if two people’s personalities seem to fit, the ‘chemistry’ can’t be forced. And the writers forced it. They also butchered Rachel’s character. I see now why you say she was a ‘doof.’ In season 9, she is, sometimes, a doof. For instance, laughing at “homo erectus” with Joey during Ross’s speech. Look how much Rachel and Joey have in common!… Except when in the nine previous years had Rachel ever displayed such a juvenile sense of humor?

        Season 9 is the bottom of the Friends barrel for me. Rachel and Joey is part of the problem, but several characters make some unbelievable swerves.

        • Jamey Stegmaier says:

          James–I appreciate that you continue to research this topic. 🙂 You definitely know way more than I do about this topic.

          I think part of my labeling Rachel as a “doof” goes way back to earlier seasons. Correct me if I’m wrong, but for several seasons she’s not portrayed as a particularly intelligent person, right? Eventually she finds a career and becomes a fairly savvy professional, but because of those early seasons, I couldn’t imagine her ever having an intelligent or even compatible conversation with Ross. Ross is quite dorky (I say that with affection for his character), and I picture him with someone who can talk to him on his level and indulge his fascination with science and paleontology. Doesn’t Rachel just make fun of him for bringing up those topics?

          I think that’s what I meant when I said Rachel wasn’t deserving of Ross, and perhaps “deserving” wasn’t the right word. It comes down to conversation, which I consider a top-3 element of a successful relationship. I simply can’t imagine Ross and Rachel having a conversation that is equally stimulating for both of them.

          Compare their conversations to some of the conversations between couples on How I Met Your Mother. Most of their conversations are about “nothing,” but Lily and Marshall seem to have a true conversational connection. Or Jim and Pam on The Office–their conversations have a playfulness to them where you can see how they truly connect through humor. Perhaps it’s tough to squeeze conversations into 22-minute sitcoms, and maybe Ross and Rachel were having better conversations “off camera,” but I find it hard to believe.

          • James says:

            In early seasons Rachel was certainly more spoiled, and I would never describe her as an intellectual, as I would for Ross. But I think it was clear that Rachel, despite her teasing (which, it should be noted, is one of those things that got more common only as the series went on for somewhat easy laughs) she really respected Ross’s intelligence. And Rachel wasn’t *stupid*, necessarily, so I can see that she could have intelligent conversations with Ross. You’re right, we might not see too many onscreen… But then again, how entertaining would it be to see them have an intelligent conversation? I’ll re-watch the first half of the series after I’m finished with this run through; it will be interesting to compare.

            One of my favorite Ross and Rachel moments is in Season 3, after they’ve broken up. I can’t remember the episode, exactly, but Rachel has injured herself and Ross is taking care of her, neglecting to tell her that in doing so he’s skipping the opportunity to speak at some televised conference. There are playful moments there, and some sweet ones as well.

            Especially telling is that the actors involved didn’t like the Joey/Rachel pairing. As they are the ones responsible for creating chemistry, they realized that Joey and Rachel didn’t have it. Ross and Rachel were puzzle pieces that fit together despite their very different shapes.

            • Jamey Stegmaier says:

              Ha ha…that’s a good point, it may not have been entertaining to see them have an intellectual conversation. I just want some indication that Rachel can relate to Ross on his level (and he needs to relate to her about her interests and passions as well).

              I certainly think the two of them were smitten with each other, hence sacrificial acts like Ross not going to that conference. But I’ve also seen a lot of relationships in real life work out when smitten doesn’t equal true connection.

              Let me know what you find after re-watching the first half of the series. Maybe keep track of the number of episodes where Ross and Rachel are happy together–no bickering, no fighting, just happily dating. And perhaps give some examples of a connection they have with each other that goes beyond their general smitten-ness with each other. If you want to do a guest entry on the topic, let me know.

  28. Katie says:

    I think some of your reasons are a little ridiculous. No offense. But they seem to be part of your list for no other reason other than that you couldn’t think of anything else to put.

    1. Ross pines over Rachel? Well Rachel pines over Ross too.
    2. She doesn’t like him just because he likes her. They shared their first kiss in the laundry mat and I believe that is when Rachel starts realizing the great guy in front of her. He gave her the confidence boost she needed. Not to mention she went after him when he left for China. She was in love with him before she saw the prom video.
    3. He does not choose Rachel just because she is hot. Nothing in the show proves this. That is just your opinion. I’m not a huge fan of Rachel either but she has other great qualities about her that Ross loves besides her good looks.
    4. Of course they are happy together. Until contrivances put in by the writers prevented them from staying happy. There had to be drama between them. One of the most iconic things about this show is the on again off again relationship between those two. Can you really even imagine the show without it?

    As far as her relationship with Joey:

    1. A lot of people are a lot alike but that doesn’t make them compatible with each other. Even so, Rachel grew to be a very successful woman. Joey, while becoming slightly more successful than he previously was, was still immature and stupid. I would say that Phoebe and Joey had more compatible personalities than Rachel and Joey.
    2. You can say this about any relationship for any pair of people. My maturity and success compliments my friend’s selfish and childish behavior. In turn, he can teach me about letting loose and not taking life so seriously. Does that mean we’re perfect together?
    3. They are happy as friends. Just because two people are happy as friends doesn’t mean they can make it work with a long term relationship.

    You’re using all the reasons for why they are great friends for why should be together. There is a line between friend and boy/girlfriend. Rachel and Joey were never able to cross that line comfortably. Rachel was always uncomfortable when Joey tried to put the moves on her (pushing his hand away, or Joey never being able to get her bra undone) Also, Joey’s feelings seemed to come out of nowhere and they died really quickly. It was almost like he just had a crush on her. They made their relationship so awkward on purpose. So the audience would know that they didn’t belong together. They were too good of friends to be romantically involved.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Katie–Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You make some solid points about Ross and Rachel. It’s been a while since I watched the first few seasons of Friends, so I would need to go back and verify the reasons (other than hotness) that Ross likes Rachel. Can you give some examples?

      I completely agree that Rachel evolved quite a bit over the course of the show. Joey did too, but perhaps not as much.

      I see what you’re saying about complementing people. I think I better explained this in the comment just above yours. It’s all about conversation.

      Thanks for your thoughts! I like that people are passionate about this topic. 🙂

  29. samantha says:

    I think this is. Totally wrong,I understand that we as viewers are supposeD to want ross and rachel together because that’s how the show was. Written but there is much more to it than that. As we all know ross has been in love with rchel for an extremley long time and.when chndler convinces him to let it go that’s when rachel finds out about how ross feels. Rachel was currentley dating a man when she finds out and when she goes on a date all she can see is ross in her head. She thinks to herself ‘I always choose the wrong guy to be with ross is kind and caring and. He’s been here all this time’ this is when she feels love for ross. From this point on rachel is very unhappy seeing ross with julie it makes her want ross even more she can’t believe what she’s missed out on. Ross later finds out about rachels feelings and eventually breaks up with julie rachel and ross end up being together and are happily together for the whole 2nd series+most of the 3rd! So they’re relationship was very good for a long time and if I remwmber rightly there reltionship only breaks down because of rachels job+ross’s job. From this point on they have other alous of each other relationships and kind of take it in turns to be je(another point showing they never truly stop loving each other). As for how ross supposedly treats rachel bad when she’s. Had the baby if you remembEr correctly rachel is the one that starts dating first and she explains to ross she wants to move on therefore ross trys to move on too,rachel gets upset and jealous which is kind of her own fault as she suggested moving on. But despite all that they’ve been through they end up confessing that they’ve always loved eachother and they want to be together forever;) this I think shows they are perfect for each other ever herd the saying opposites attract. If joey was meant to be with rachel then surley they would have been comfortable acting like a couple but they wernt they found it awkward unlike when rachel broke the line of friendship with ross and monica did with chandler;). The thing that always gets me is why didn’t joey+pheobe. Get together?!

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      A fair point, Samantha. Why didn’t Joey and Phoebe get together? I could see that working.

      I really need to go back and watch the early seasons when Ross and Rachel were together. I really don’t remember many episodes when they were happily dating with no huge drama between them, but it’s been so long since I’ve watched them that I’m sure it’s possible.

      • samantha says:

        maybe you could re watch the early seasons and you could the remake a conclusion about who you think she should end up with;)

      • Zee says:

        Ross + Rachel = meant to be. Even when they broke up in season 3 I knew they would be endgame. It didn’t matter who they dated in between, I was confident that in the end, they’d come back to each other. Which they did 😉 Joey + Rachel were just awkward together. I knew right away that it wasn’t going to last. I felt like the writers were just throwing in an awkward fling between them for pure drama. And how can you be so sure they’d be happy together in the long-run? They were only together for a bit. Rachel would eventually have gotten tired of him. Not to mention that Joey, despite being good-hearted, was too dumb to make a serious relationship with Rachel work.

        • samantha says:

          This is such a good summary about it all,well said

        • Jamey Stegmaier says:

          Sure, the writers set up Rachel and Ross to be together from the beginning. That doesn’t mean they’d be good for each other in real life. Based on the characters the writers created–not plot contrivances like Joey fumbling with Rachel’s bra (does anyone believe that would happen?!)–Joey and Rachel are considerably more compatible. I’m open to other perspectives, however. Perhaps you can share 3 concrete examples of how Ross and Rachel would be highly compatible in real life based on their characters in Friends.

          • Zee says:

            Real life? Ross and Rachel’s real life was the show. Plot contrivances were a part of their real life. It’s not about whether it would happen in real life or not. It was the message behind it that mattered = Rachel and Joey were good friends, but it felt awkward for them to take it further. How can they be compatible when Joey is too dumb? And made Rachel dumber? They were good as friends…but as partners? It was laughable.
            Ross and Rachel would end up together in “real life” – as you say – for many reasons.
            1) they have a lot of history. You can not ignore that. It may be the biggest reason. They share their past, and it could make the biggest difference.
            2) they both acted immature many times, but at the end of the day, their love for each other shone through
            3) they compliment each other well
            4) they loved each other despite their clashing flaws. They loved each other despite the fights they had. They accepted each other for who they were.
            5) Rachel understood Ross like no other woman did, though she did not always like it. And vise versa.
            6) they were such imperfect individuals that together they were perfect
            7) chemistry
            8) believe it or not, sharing a child brings many couples together/closer

            And I would just like to add, just because we say Rachel + Joey were bad together does not necessarily mean Rachel + Ross were amazing together. It simply means that Ross was better for Rachel than Joey was for Rachel.
            Rachel and Joey looked and sounded way too cheerful and fake, which was not “realistic”. Joey did not have the brains to keep Rachel happy in the long run. Ross and Rachel ‘s story in general was much more realistic.
            At the end of the day, why does it matter what would have happened in “real life”. The fact of it is, Friends was just a show (to most of us) and reality to the characters, and it is therefore the most important world, and in that world, Ross and Rachel ended up together.

            • Jamey Stegmaier says:

              Thanks for sharing this list, Zee. I think we view compatible/healthy relationships in different ways, but that’s okay. 🙂 Your line about Gunther was awesome, though.

          • Zee says:

            Also, I believe it’s not even about Ross or Joey. Rachel was always the problem. She should have ended up with Gunther or something.

  30. Jessica says:

    I would have preferred if Joey and Rachel ended up together.

    As much as I loved Ross, he didn’t respect Rachel much as a person. He had a crush on her from the beginning, but did he ever say why? Rachel was a spoilt brat in the beginning. He only like how attractive she was.

    Joey kew her for ages, but its season 7/8 when he begins to have feelings for her. They develop after he’s known her for years and she’s matured up a little bit.

    Another thing is, Rachel matured Joey as a person, (not in the relationship but as in the friendship when they were roommates), he was willing to change for her. If you see their friendship as well, they shared stuff together, she made him read her favourite novel and vice versa, he taught how to curse in italian, they watched movies together. If the writers would have develped their relationship, even f it started then, many fans would have enjoyed it.

    Whilst, you never saw Ross and Rachel making the little things count. They just fought.
    And usually I’m all for a love/hate relationship and how ppisites attract, but sometimes it feels the writers forced Rachel to go for Ross.

    Ross and Joey were oth put in a position where they didnt want Rachel to leave. Ross when Rachel wanted to go to Paris. Stopping her at the last minute. Whining to OTHER people about it rather than confronting Rachel. Joey on the other hand, when he didnt want her to leave his apartment, he told her straight away (albeit it twisted words) and then gave her a reason not to go, and bought a baby crib.

    Also with Rachel’s baby, you saw how Joey gave Emma his penguin toy, for a while, he took care of the baby with Racel (assumed as he was the room mate), it wasnt even his baby.This shows how mature he is. Even though Ross was the dad, we didnt see many moment with him and Emma when Rachel stayed with Joey.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Jessica–This is brilliant! I love all the specific examples you gave that support Joey + Rachel. Very well said.

  31. Jesica says:

    Also,Pheobe and Rachel also talked once about Joey be the hottest. (Pheobe was single at that moment). If i was in a relationship, or was truly in love with Ross throughout the whole series, I wouldnt call my best friend hotter than my boyfriend

  32. Natalie says:

    Im not sure, but I think it was Rachel (or maybe Chandler), but once Joey ran and starting talking jibberish and Rachel understood everything and all the others were confused. and she just said “I understand Joey”
    So she understood Joey like no other woman

  33. riley says:

    I purposely googled “rachel joey friends” just hoping I will run onto someone who agrees with me on this 😀

    Personally I HATED Ross Rachel pairing, I felt like it was so forced and the two of them as characters didn’t fit at all, two different and completely incompatible people. At the beginning it was tolerable (though annoying) but after he cheated on her (or “they were on a break”), and that lamest scene ever where they were breaking up for hours, I was honestly with all of my heart hoping that we saw the last of them as a couple.

    Joey Rachel pairing on the other hand I loved. Those two characters obviously had a lot in common, got close while living together, were more physically attracted to each other than not, and then their friendship eventually started evolving. I saw no reason for why they wouldn’t work out as a couple, except for writers coming up with a lame excuse – how is it even possible that two people make out several times but then suddenly figure out that they don’t want to/can’t have sex?

    Ok, even if the reason for their break up was “we’re too good friends to be able to be together”, W H Y did she suddenly have to get back together with Ross at the end of season 10?! *puke*

    Basically I just don’t understand why did the writers feel the need to ruin otherwise an awesome show like that for me?

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Well said, Riley. It’s too bad the show was at the whim of the writers. Does any–even those who think that Ross and Rachel should be together–believe that Joey wouldn’t want to sleep with Rachel? I certainly don’t. Even if I were best friends with Rachel, I would still want to sleep with her.

    • Holly says:

      Exactly!!! It is said that you should be best friends with the person you marry, so obviously being “too good of friends” to get together is a very shallow reason.
      Another example I read and wholeheartedly agree with was before Ross and Rachel got together, he was able to a list of very hurtful characteristics about Rachel and why he shouldn’t be with her (not that she wasn’t spoiled, but it shows early on his lack of respect for her). However when Joey tries to think of why they shouldn’t be together the only reason he could come up with is one that he spins positively in her favour (demonstrating that he respects her as a person). And yes the whole “not enough chemistry to do it” thing was absolutely a huge cop out from the writers. Rachel and Ross always felt forced and incompatible, but Rachel and Joey had a beautiful foundation for their relationship to build on. And that’s why I believe the show should have just ended when they finally kiss at the end of season 9.

  34. Sienna says:

    I was watching an episode when Joey confesses his feelings and Rachel doesnt feel the same way but her reaction to him nt talking to her was telling him a lie eventually so she could tal to him again. Even for a little while. When Ross and Rachel break up, she’s never had urges to talk to him r get back with him sraight away, has she?
    It shows how she values her intimacy with Joey

  35. Sienna says:

    If you watch the entire series, you see Rachel’s friendship evolve with Joey better than any of the other guys. As much asa I like Chandler, there were points you could see Chandler and Rachel were not that clse to each other, and with Ross and Rachel it was always a struggle to get along and understand if they were together or not. I love love/hate relationships but this one was too tedious. With Rachel and Joey, Rachel at first had a crush on Joey but let it go. They were close friends but their friendship strengthened when Rachel moved in with Joey. And then yousee Rachel having to the option to move back in with Pheobe but she doesnt becasue she likes staying with Joey. From this point, you see their friendship becoming stronger and thats when they beinning deeper feeling for each other. There is an episode when Rachel is hormonal and she doesnt detest the idea of having sex with Joey. She says, “I just want to do it with someone who wont take it too seriously, who’s experiencing and caring. (and hot)” and then she looks at Joey and they both shout n but come out of their bedrooms and contemplate it.

  36. […] from time to time. You may not be aware of it, but for a while now the blog entry I wrote about Rachel and Joey being a better match on Friends than Rachel and Ross has continued to attract commenters (93 comments, 1,000+ votes). People are […]

  37. Brittany says:

    Just want to say in response to the thoughts of Rachel and Joey being sexually incompatible that’s not entirely true. Rachel and Ross weren’t perfectly fine with sexual things when they first started, their flirting was awkward, their kissing was awkward, I mean Rachel laughed when Ross kissed her. Joey and Rachel can at least kiss and flirt, it was only when they tried to go any further than that then things got awkward, which is understandable. You cannot start a relationship with one of your best friends without things being a little awkward.
    I think the show should have gone for the J/R scenario, or at least spent more time on a way to develop a better ending to the relationship, rather than awkwardness, maybe a few more episodes of a relationship, rather than 3. I think the R/R people have it right when they say the J/R relationship was just another thing to stand in the way of R/R but I also think that a LOT of people fell in love with J/R and that even though they were great friends, they could have been the perfect couple, they were just cute together. R/R together was wrong, I’ve never thought they matched and when they first got paired up at the beginning, to tell you the truth I thought it was just a way for the show to say that Rachel was maturing because she went out with someone she wouldn’t usually go for, was kind of annoyed when it went on for longer than that.

  38. John says:

    I agree completely with the article. Ross is a geek. He was good for the show and I thought arguably the best actor of the six, but geeks should not end up with beauties like Rachel. the chemistry never quite worked. If you want to see chemistry, see Sam and Diane of cheers.

    Joey did have more in common with Rachel. Ross was like Gunther, only a tiny bit less desperate and more educated (and not quite as creepy)

  39. srikanth v says:

    As many said that rachel and joey would have made a better couple that ross rachel.i see that ross and rachel are better
    From the start when ross talks with rachel he always makes her feel a better person when she ran out off her marriage and that she can do everything on her own without her daddy ‘s money and since he had a crush on her from school when she was not as hot as she was later and joey would have never seen her in that avatar what she was in school but ross liked her from the start even though she was noth that good but was too afraid to confess his feelings for her.ross is a very committed guy than joey and u cant be always like that as joey who was and at some point of time u need to change.

    ya ross was jealous of her when she was with mark as it turns out that when you are crazy about a person and u r in love with her then the jealousy thing comes which goes same with rach when he had a play date with a stripper.ya they fought most of the time but that makes them special as they have affection towards each other and these fights make their bonding stronger.

    ya joey told rach that she was the hottest roommate she had since she was hot and was also a good friend to her.when chandler moved out also he told that he was the best roommate he had.when he said this to rachel its not that he liked but that goes as the same as he told chandler the same.

    what joey had for rachel is what he felt is for temp and then went off after she said that she did not felt the same about her and then after a few episodes he stated talking to her like she always do.joey has slept with several diff people and has never called back,it shows what relationship is to him.he kissed rachel in barbados since he saw both ross and the other palentology girl were kissing.it is obviously to backfire at ross.thats not a healthy thing to do.

    ross was also cute and smart and so the whole thing about she is too hot for him is not a valid one from my perspective.the looks will eventually wear off when we get old what matters is the inside thing which always stays young.

    joey and rach were not able to do it since they were bff and inside them they felt it is not right.

    ross and rach had it in them right from the start and many instances proving that and the fact that they could not come out of their own shell like they had an ego of whom will confess first.

    So from my perspective ross and rach are a better couple.

  40. Nina says:

    Without even looking on these arguments on the internet, just by watching the whole show, i learn on my own that Joey is better than Ross. Rachel (and every girl) deserves someone, who will treat them nicely, make them feel special, kisses you like you are his world. I felt it on Joey than Ross.

  41. windypoplars says:

    I find Joey too sweet when he was having this secret crush on Rachel. But, let’s admit it, he and Rachel are too similar. It would be boring to spend your entire life with someone you’re too similar with. That’s why, I think, Ross and Rachel sold better to fans. Because Ross has many qualities that Rachel doesn’t have (smarter, doesn’t act on emotions, etc.) that could make him a good husband for Rachel and a good other parent for their child. Imagine if Emma has both very emotional parents who cannot make a sound decision (remember the ep on Rachel going out the first time without Emma?) nor make an effort to make the house neat. Rachel and Joey’s apartment was, for me, something that a child shouldn’t grow up in. There’s no order. Whilst you look at Ross living alone and his apartment is neat. There are basic values that kids need to learn to grow up well and having parents with combined qualities of Rachel and Ross would provide that.

  42. Nazmi Akif Sözen says:

    I dont know whether Rachel should end up with Joey or Ross.I was happy when they pull Rachel/Joey think because i just want Joey to be happy.Because i still think out of all 6 of them Joey was the most honest and most caring one.He always kept secrets even it is too difficult for him(like Monica-chandler ),he always care about his friends(like how he forgive Chandler after finding out he kissed Kathy,or breaking up by far the hottest chick on Friends Janine just because she didnt get along with her firends) and never acts behind their friends even though both Ross and chandler kiss his girlfriend.When he dream about he and moinica doing crosswords or he falls in love with rachel he didnt even consider going after them.He didnt even tell anybody but both his buddies are whine about how they should be the ones with joeys girls.Both Kathy and Charlie arc example for that.And he is the hottest therefore i am not hardcore joey /rachel fan but i just want him to be happy.Sorry if i wrote any words wrong i am so sleepy.

  43. John says:

    many people make good arguments each way, but still it comes down to that Ross is just too much of a geek, and further, I just never sensed that Rachel really loved him. maybe it was bad acting, but the chemistry in my opinion never really worked. sure, in real life, it is not about chemistry, but on the screen….its about chemistry….

  44. Hanna Ikmore says:

    I personally think your wrong… Ross cares about Rachel and they’re so cute together. What does Joey see in Rachel then as well? I’m guessing you just wanted her to end up with Joey thats all… Rachel and Ross all the way

  45. Sean says:

    You make a good point, but I have to disagree respectfully because Joey and Rachel were too much alike. Ever heard of opposites attract. Ross and Rachel were opposites but they truly loved eachother they where meant to be. Joey and Rachel are up in the air/free while Ross is grounded. Joey and Rachel were good together but it wouldn’t have ended well for them to much up in air and freedom. But with Ross and Rachel it is a perfect balance of up in the air and being grounded. And remember the notebook too opposites but were truly in love.

  46. Emily Lane says:

    The main problem with Rachel and Joey, is that they had no chemistry. You do make good points, but they were just too good at being buddies. Their romantic scenes felt forced and almost incestual. Ross and Rachel did have problems, but they also had passion, and that makes it seem more like a real relationship.

  47. Anna says:

    I’m glad I found your post, and I agree with it. R/R’s chemistry fizzled out after they broke up, and they failed so many times to make it work that it only proved how bad they were together. Jennifer Aniston looked bored with the relationship after Season 3, they should have stayed broken up because her scenes with him made me cringe, like when she said “i’m in love with you” then laughed it off when she realized how ridiculous it was. Ross did all these horrible things to Rachel, like lie to her about the annulment he didn’t get and hide messages from her. Ross dated Charlie right after she broke up with Joey, so I don’t see why Rachel and Joey couldn’t have dated 6 years after R/R broke up.

    J/R was better for all three characters: it made Joey more mature, Rachel more relaxed, and it gave us Ross’s funniest moments in the show. Breaking up J/R and shoving her back with Ross made him jealous and screaming at Rachel. Joey was made even stupider so he wouldn’t be perceived as a threat. Rachel was turned back into Ross’s prize, with no personality except “I love Ross. I don’t need a job, He can keep his job.” Not very romantic or healthy to me.

    Rachel didn’t want to date Ross at first in Seasons 1 and 2 until she had a fantasy about him telling her to date him and found out he did something nice. It took 9 years for her to entertain the thought of dating Ross, which led to her loving him. Why was it so wrong for her to like Joey in the same time frame, and after Joey *told* her his feelings instead of bottling them up like Ross did? Rachel had a crush on Joey when they first met. They liked each other, they had fun, they resolved conflicts easily, they trusted each other, they supported each other’s jobs, they loved living together and they slowly got closer. People say R/J’s friendship shouldn’t have been ruined but they were never 100% platonic. Joey always hit on Rachel, he was always interested in her and she was interested in him sometimes, so it’s inaccurate to say they were like siblings. A sister does not say to her brother, “I’m doing good baby, how you doing?” even if she’s drunk, and she doesn’t ask her brother to have sex with her because she has pregnancy hormones. They did not have an incestuous relationship.

    People also love to say Rachel was “dumbed down” for Joey but don’t have any real examples. Rachel laughed at Ross’s lecture but she never understood his dinosaur stuff. She said “Well duh!” about not getting a high SAT score long before she liked Joey. She said, “I don’t know who’s running for President or who that NATO guy is” *after* she and Joey broke up. Ross also listed her ditziness against her. Rachel thought Phoebe was telling the truth about Jane Eyre the robot while she didn’t date Joey, and Rachel figured out Phoebe was her masseuse while she liked Joey. She was always average intelligence, but wasn’t dumbed down for Joey, he was just matured from his womanizing ways and R/R fans think Rachel was dumb for liking Joey instead of Ross, who threw shoes past her head and yelling at her “Get your butt in your room and pick something out so we can go.” So romantic!

    Rachel also matured light years beyond Ross in terms of possessiveness. She helped Ross out with dates (picking out clothes for him and getting him the pizza girl’s number) and she was fine with Ross dating Mona, Elizabeth, and Charlie. She was upset when Joey dated Charlie but tried to keep her distance, Phoebe told her “don’t do anything with Joey!!” but Rachel was congratulated for kissing Ross while he was dating Julie, because R/R could get away with anything. Joey grew up because of his love for Rachel, he stopped sleeping with a lot of women, he grew more responsible in caring for a child and for Rachel while she was pregnant, he didn’t expect Rachel to return his feelings and didn’t guilt her or push her like Ross did, and he wasn’t screaming about food like he did after R/J broke up. They were better people together, Ross always dragged Rachel down to his immature pettiness. Rachel was caring and confident with Joey, but with Ross she was always turned into a crying, nervous Barbie doll he had to win.

    JA and MLB had chemistry but it was very obvious how they were suddenly awkward in Season 10 because the writers and actors were scared to death of angry R/R fans. That’s why the writers changed things so quickly. Then the writers reunited R/R in such a hasty and horrible way that I can easily imagine Rachel dumping Ross and ending up with Joey. One reason why I think they couldn’t have sex on the show was because if she did, she’d be like “Ross who?” after one night with Joey. He treated her with respect and love while Ross just treated her as an object to own and hide from other men, meanwhile Rachel was mean to Ross and sweet to Joey.

    I’m happy R/J got the majority vote here, it’s nice to see the underdog ship get some love.

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Anna: That’s the single best analysis of this topic I’ve ever read! (and there are some great comments that preceded yours, so that’s saying a lot). Thanks for taking the time to weigh in!

    • Dominic says:

      Great post! Pretty hint the nail on the head with that. I was thinking off all those incidences when I was reading this thread and glad someone else said. R/R were incompatible, it is their nature to make-up then break up as the songs say it’s okay for fools, it could never last. I do believe they split after, because Ross isn’t going to change, and neither is Rachel and it’s an eventuality they would break it off only with more resentment Rachel giving up Paris. Also, I don’t think it was the awkwardness, rather Ross actions prior messed with their heads, much like Ross when he married for the second time saying Rachel’s name. Because she showed up and she was on his mind. It’s the same psyche analysis here. Joey and Rachel both said they couldn’t going forward if Ross had an issue, and he clearly did. But if you think about the subconscious prior, Rachel and Joey had dreams of each other. Instinctively they were compatible, in Barbados they were going to go pretty far, is was Ross’s knocking that stopped them, then the guilt trip from their meddling friends.

      I always found it odd that other people had to convince Ross, or Rachel that they had to be together, it was always pressured by someone else, like Monica, or Phoebe. With Joey it was taboo, they couldn’t be adult an make their own decision, but despite the protests they came together anyway. That was something Rachel wanted, she wanted Joey, and vs versa. Just say’n if you have to convince Ross that he has to be with Rachel, or vice versa then it just shouldn’t be. Ross, people saying that he loved Rachel with they were in Highschool, really, didn’t he co-found the I hate Rachel club, and not only that spread a rumor calling her a Hermaphrodite. Ross has always been selfishly motivated, it had to be his way, and he could be very vindictive when he didn’t get it, he never took responsibility when he hurt Rachel, nor did he change the way he treated her as beneath him, it’s hard other than physical attraction to see what he really wanted or loved from Rachel when he dogged her most of the time, mocking her intelligence or profession. People who loved that ship love abuse, such things do not have to be to make the couple interesting Chandler and Monica for example.

      Also, Joey and Rachel did not happen out of the blue, it was small things that really started in the fifth season, only Joey didn’t realize what he was feeling until Rachel was living with him and the went on a date. But moments when he was being protective of her when Rachel was being bullied by the superintendent standout and he was the only one to not only stomach Rachel’s botched cooking, but genuinely loved it, and went around and ate it all. He started to understand those feelings that were foreign to him. We were able to learn about the underutilized characters when they interacted, we found out more about Joey and his feelings, thoughts, fears past, dealings with his family and Rachel opened up to Joey and she did this with no one else, her being like her verbally abusive father, who she tried not to be but ended up searching for someone like him, Ross. The most emotion I’ve seen from Rachel was when Joey was going to walk away after being rejected. I think Joey had it right from the start when Ross ask if the mystery girl had feelings for him and Joey said something to the effect I don’t know, sometime I think she could. It was something that was starting to bloom and I think if there are soulmates, then it would be those two and likely reconnected after R/R failed for the millioneth time. I like the relationship because it was organic saw that chemistry and where the writers wanted to go, they left the end open ended to draw your own conclusion knowing R/R nature, two egos colliding always be conflicting. I also question Emma’s father being Ross. think it was Tag’s, but being scared about ruining his life with the friends and their advice it would be easier to go with Ross. The timing really, how could she just know? lol

  48. Kav says:

    I have all the seasons and have been watching them ritualistically for 12 years. If you watch all the seasons up until season 9 you can see that Rachel and Joey’s personalities don’t fit and there is always unspoken attractions between Ross and Rachel. It is only in season 9 that the writers started to make Rachel into someone you could see with Joey but that doesn’t mean she was ever like that before. Then also you could make the assumption that she just had a huge falling out with jealously between her and Ross so she moved out and moved in with Joey and could be stooping herself and her personality down to a rebound attraction to Joey to fill that void. Really the time gap between her “eye contact” with Ross that led to mutual jealousy that led to a fight that led to her crush on Joey was too quick for it not to be sexual attraction and rebound maybe even subconsciously to get to Ross. If you know the show well enough you’d know exactly what I’m referring to.

  49. Sara says:

    If I had MY way for the show it would go something like this….

    Ross & Phoebe
    Joey & Rachel
    Chandler & Monica (The ONLY couple who got it right.)

  50. Sepiso says:

    This is 2016 and the poles votes is Joey!! Love it i was always a Joey and Rachel Fan ???

  51. Me. Pooper says:

    Ross, because throughout the whole friends tv show they try to make eachother jealous Bc they like eachother plus they had a baby

  52. Asy says:

    I think ross and rachel is not perfect but better than joey and rachel cause:
    1. From the pilot episode many can figure out that they were going to be together in one point of series. He had a crush on her from way back that doesn’t make him a stalker, he actually wanted to be with her and we all know he tried for the whole first season.
    2. Rachel didnt like him only because he liked her but after she got the gift and found out about ross’ feeling she actually thinks about it and also hallucinate or imagine about him while she was dating another guy, she didn’t love him but she just wanted to give him a chance since they became a good friends in previous episodes
    3. Because monica was ross’ sister and rachels best friend, Ross and rachel frequently met each other and ross already had a crush on her so actual feeling started to grow everytime they met (remember im talking about past) also rachel wasnt that hot in high school so… dont think so.
    4. Well i wont say “not happy together”. I agree they fought in many episodes mainly because of misunderstanding or jealousy or ross’ too much love for rachel but not only that but we can also see in each episode that they forgive each other or truly cared for each other or was there when needed for each other and not hesitating to sacrifice something big for each other and best part for me was admitting they always had feelings for each other agreed that sometimes its late but..
    5. I also felt Emma was brought up as character in the show to secure their relation till the very end and it did and im happy for that.
    6. And my biggest reason,” he is her lobster.” which made me always root for them.
    Now lets talk about joey and rachel why they didn’t worked out for me
    1. Maybe a one night stand would work but serious relationship i dont think so. You say they are sexually confident character which can aldo be a reason they wouldn’t work, because let just say two kings cant rule one kingdom.
    2. At certain EVERYBODY had matured past joeys “man-boy” persona, joey really didn’t cared about commitment and when he committed a girl(the one chandler fell in love with) he was dating with another girl which makes me come to the next point
    3. Joey was a playboy straight and rachel when dating ross felt insecured when he met a girl so keeping this fact in mind we can be sure there wouldn’t be trust in their relationship and we saw their passions didnt lasted when started kissing after the date
    4.Rachel and joey are happy together most of the time because they were a “good friends” not a couple and as a good friend joey proposed rachel thinking she wont be able handle the baby all alone which he did before to phoebe because he thought she was pregnant. So being a good friend and being in serious relationship is very different cause there would be alot of commitment which joey isnt prepared of, there would be a lot of responsibility which neither wouldn’t be able to handle so.
    5. After they had feelings for each other it didnt even workout properly for three episodes so they suddenly returned back to friendzone
    6. They also didn’t feel right, they didn’t have a love chemistry which even matt leblanc and Jennifer agreed on in an interview after the end of the series where matt said that it didn’t feel right and it always was ross and rachel and Jennifer said she always had special place in her heart for ross and rachel
    7. Rachel actually had feelings for dr. Ramoray (the one that came on her dream) so it was basically a fantasy for rachel more than a feeling
    8. This relationship was just like a experiment for the cast to try which was perhaps said on same interview i dont know
    Now im not saying they wouldn’t had work but it was very late in the season and it didn’t feel right cause ross and rachel already had a baby together and also this arguement is pointless cause ross and rachel ended up together which i dont know about you but it made me very happy.

  53. AJ says:

    Ok Joey and Rachel’s personalities match so does Phoebe’s Nd his…And Joey and Rachel connect as friends because they have similar personalities…And they were very great friends and that works for them as a couple maybe they can but they really don’t click that way…And Rachel is too matured for him by the end of series….The thing about Ross Rachel is that they are total polar opposites and maybe the writers wanted to show us that even though they have difficulties they can always make that work…And by the finale it is shown that way…So sorry author your debate is invalid….It’s a sitcom so they had to write that way…We were not manipulated…If it weren’t for entertainment then Ross and Rachel would definitely have hooked up very earlier..Blame the writers for including unnecessary storylines…And Ross is not a creep..Pls cut him some slack

  54. Daniel Stark says:

    In real life relationships aren’t all lovey dovey, and sometimes you get in fights. You know when someone is right for you when you’ve had your fights/hard spots but still want to stay together. I think that’s why Ross/Rachel have the strongest relationship on friends. All the others never had a real rough spot, so they’ve never been truly tested.

  55. Cali says:

    (7/1/2017) I was pleasantly surprised to see the pro-J/R comments on this blog and to see that Joey is way ahead on the poll.

    I think “chemistry” is completely subjective. To me, I thought all the guys had chemistry with all the girls, and I love friends-first love stories, so I would have been good with any pairings the show would have come up with.

    I am not going to say anything bad about R/R. I didn’t mind them as a couple and I thought they had good moments on the show.

    But I LOVED Joey and Rachel together. They were so sweet and fun together and always knew exactly what to say and how to help each other out. I agree with the poster who said they were never 100% platonic; Joey always flirted and made innuendos to Rachel, while she often commented on Joey being attractive and admitted to having a crush on him when they first met.

    I absolutely do not agree with any of the “weird” or “awkward” comments about J/R…I thought they were HOT together and to me, their kisses were passionate, yet also comfortable (even the couple of kisses on the lips that took place in earlier seasons when neither of them were having romantic feelings about each other).

    When Rachel slapped Joey during their makeout session, it was a similar situation to when she kept laughing when she and Ross first started getting physical. (And because Joey couldn’t get a bra off, suddenly they are sexually incompatible?) I think Rachel and Joey could have similarly gotten past it, but then the writers had to set up the comedic bit where Rachel goes overboard and gets too aggressive.

    Rewatching the series from time to time has reinforced to me that the reason why Rachel and Joey “didn’t work,” and why it was considered by many to be a “horrible storyline” was…Ross. A lot of the fandom and even the actors themselves just couldn’t get past the history of Ross and Rachel. That colored their perception and they viewed everything in the R/J storyline as “wrong” and “awkward” and “inappropriate.”

    R/J was never given much of a chance to develop on its own– it was always Ross-centric. “I couldn’t do that to Ross.” “What would Ross say?” “We have to tell Ross.” “Is Ross OK?” “It’s so complicated because of Ross.” Rachel and Joey never got to talk at all about the two of them as a couple.

    If Ross never existed or never dated Rachel, I can’t see anything about Rachel and Joey themselves that would have made them a bad couple. I am still disappointed we were never given a real chance to see it play out.

  56. Rachel says:

    Until now I’m still hoping Joey and Rachel would end up together. 🙁 Their chemistry and qualities as a couple were great. I just thought that they ended up so fast because it’s already the last season and at that time, they were rooting for Ross and Rachel. Ross never deserved Rachel. He couldn’t even compromise the “we were on a break” issue. He never cared about her. He even dated other girls when Rachel was pregnant with Emma, but He reacted when Rachel was having a date with someone, how gentleman was that?
    At season 9, Joey refused to be with Rachel because he was thinking of Ross’ feelings. But there was Ross kissing Charlie, right after Joey and Charlie broke up, what a friend!
    And at season 10, when Ross found out about Joey and Rachel, his immaturity came out. He was dating Charlie but he acted like he was cheated by his friends.
    For me, Rachel deserves the best, and that is Joey. Too sad the original loveteam was Ross-Rachel. And Joey never had a clear ending.

  57. Jade says:

    I feel as though you made a good point. But I also think it was a bit unfair to point out the good things between Rachel and Joey and then point out the bad things between Rachel and Ross. And then ask us who should’ve ended up with who; you should’ve pointed out both the bad and good

    • Jamey Stegmaier says:

      Jade: That’s fair! While I’m solidly in the Joey/Rachel camp, there are many times that I enjoy seeing him and Rachel together on the show. I do struggle to point out the reasons why they should be together, though–while we see the two of them make sweeping romantic gestures towards each other, I find it hard to remember times when we really see them connect as two human beings, whether it’s via conversation, humor, shared interests, etc. The only thing I can think of is physical chemistry. Conversely, the show gives us lots of reasons to see how Joey and Rachel are a good fit. But I’m certainly open to other points of view. What are some of the good things you see about Ross and Rachel (on a human, relationship level) and some of the bad things about Joey and Rachel? Like, if you knew those people in real life without TV writers pulling the strings, which couple would make more sense to you?

      • Soopinder says:

        The thing with rnr is, the writers were concerned with their story not so much the fit, so youre hard pressed to find those compatible moments. However there are several reasons they make more sense tham JnR. For one, rachel is too smart with Joey. There are several times when joey makes a dumb comment and she doesnt really judge him but doesnt find it greatly amusing. They do have a lot in common, but in the long run that could be boring. Especially for rachel whos always looking to grow and go on adventures, whereas joey seems cool staying in his comfort zone for the most part. Rachel isnt book smart, but that doesnt show a lack of intelligence. She doesnt have knowledge of things like what NATO is, but if you explained it to her shes smart enough to understand but not care, whereas joey wouldnt be able to do both. Rachel does connect with ross on an emotional and intellectual level. For one, sense of humour. Joey has dumb humour, whereas ross and rachel both make sarcastic quips, make fun of others and often each other. Theres a moment in the laundro mat where ross tells a joke and rachel genuinely finds it funny, if they werent compatible intellectually she probably wouldnt find him that funny. She even tells the pizza girl she finds ross funny and has a good heart. She defends ross against jill and says hes not a geek, just smart. When ross and rachel are driving back for emmas party he tells a joke about being able to fix the cake and they both share a laugh. Theres hints that they share the same tastes in music, which scientifically shows some intellectual compatibility. Ross talks about how he stuck chop sticks in his mouth and pretended to be a walrus in front of charlie, and rachel says shes always loved that. They both thoroughly enjoy phoebes dollhouse. Ross loves die hard just as much as joey, which shows that although he has some interests in intelectual things he also loves mainstream stuff that rachel probably loves. Theres seemingly a lot of offscreen moments we dont get to see with RnR, like them walking alone and her telling him about a broach, or apparently going to see a magic show in atlantic city. Again we dont get to see this stuff because RnR was focused on the romance, whereas JnR were focused on friendship. Joey and Rachel would be good together in the short run but not long. They would be so comfortable together that neither would want to argue. Fighting a lot isnt healthy but neither is never fighting. Look at the way they solved being awkward together after joey says he loves her. He avoids her and she lies to get him to talk to her. Imagine a bigger issue as a couple, i cant imagine them constructively solving these issues. Also as a couple, rachel would have to baby him in many ways. Joey has a great heart and will try but he can still be clueless. Imagine them raising kids, neither would be great with discipline. Both would avoid doing some tedious things necessary in a household or rachel would have to do it which she might grow resentful for. Also joey cares more for her than she does for him. Its quite a large imbalance actually. He does so much more for her and seems to constantly compromise which is actually great in the long run as it needs to come from both sides. Joey being the good guy that he is wouldnt give voice to this and that could lead to resentment. She also doesnt always consider his feelings. When she has a crush on him she decides she wants to start a physical relationship, despite knowing he was in love with her and doesnt consider how that could affect their friendship. When hes with charlie shes about to tell him she likes him but is interuppted by ross and charlie. Also theyre not on the same level emotionally. Joey has a pure and big heart. Rachel has is good hearted as well but not to the same extent as joey and is more complicated. Example, when she asks joey if one some deeper level he doesnt want to take off her bra and he says he doesnt have one. This shows not that joey doesnt have a deeper level cause he says so, but that he doesnt think in the same way as rachel when it comes to deep emotional issues. She immediately considers theres something more to them not feeling comfortable, but he just chalks it up to her slapping him. To me this shows why they wont form a deep emotional connection. Rachel, much like ross, has a good heart but there are layers to her. They wouldve been great as friends with benefits. If you look at their sexual scenes before tow ross tan they have no problem hooking up. This is because for one, theyre just in the heat of the moment and two, theyre hooking up under the confines of a purely physical relationship. Theyre turned on by the fact that its forbidden. You can see that when they passionately kiss right after saying they cant do anything till they tell ross. But once they tell ross and hes fine with it theyre finally able to be sexual under the confines of a real relationship. However this makes them realize they dont actually feel a genuine emotional connection. They were uncomfortable just like her and ross, but with RnR there was a genuine emotional connection that allowed them to overcome that. RnR werent desperate to get into each others pants, but desperate to be together in a real relationship. JnR seemed more interested in the physical than the emotional. Again its why i believe they wouldve been great FWB but not in a real relationship. Ross and rachels chemistry was off the charts for the entire series. They complimented each other, and the best example of this is their scenes as parents together. They connect enough to want to sing baby got back to emma, but compliment each other when rachel is too worried and ross can be her rock and stabilizing force.

  58. johnny richardson says:

    From the beginning the show tells us everyone’s personality. Monica:a kid who was pick on in high school so she use that negative energy to loose weight and become a neat freak. Ross:in love with rachel his sister(Monica) best friend (which brings me to the question why other than her looks?) Rachel:a spoiled girl with no interest in the geeky guy who is ready to swoop in to “his” (acknowledging that he has serious marking his territory issues) damsel in distress.Chandler: being the geeky guy number 2. Leaving Jeoy and Phebe with not much history other than Phebe having a bad childhood and Jeoy being a womanizer

  59. penelope says:

    If you really look at it this is who should have ended up together:

    Monica- very “type A”, neat freak, neurotic, obsessive compulsive
    Phoebe- very eccentric, odd, zany, extroverted
    Rachel- a mix of the monica and phoebe

    Chandler- sarcastic, humorous
    Ross- intelligent, goofy, pathetic
    Joey- a mix of chandler and joey

    So we already know Monica and chandler got together, and they balanced each other out quite well. Also, we know from Joey and Rachel living together they made each other better. Joey became less of a playboy and was more caring and loving, and Rachel became less stuck up, sharp, I guess you could say Joey rounded out her edges. I can only assume that Phoebe and Ross would work out, buuuutttt…….probably not.

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